Episode 41

full
Published on:

14th Jun 2024

Plato's Republic Books 8-9

This week, we continue our series on Plato's Republic by discussing the topics covered in Book 8 and 9.

In Books 8 and 9 of Plato's "Republic," Socrates examines the decline of the ideal state through four degenerate regimes: timocracy, oligarchy, democracy, and tyranny. Each regime emerges from the corruption of its predecessor, driven by increasing greed and power struggles. Timocracy values honor and military prowess, oligarchy prioritizes wealth, democracy emphasizes freedom, and tyranny results in absolute rule by a despot. Socrates discusses how each form of government affects the individual's soul, highlighting the moral decay accompanying political degeneration. These books offer a profound critique of political systems and the ethical consequences of their evolution.

🔥 This live conversation was streamed live on YouTube at 7PM PST on Jun 14, 2024. Watch the video at here: https://youtu.be/-3H8Vp1hTUk

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🔥C. B. Robertson, author of The Hero and the Man, Holy Nihilism, and Letter to Anwei, shares insights his blog, Caffeine and Philosophy.

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🔥 Jack Donovan is founder of The Order of Fire and PH2T3R. He is the author of The Way of Men, Fire in the Dark, Becoming a Barbarian, and A More Complete Beast.

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Transcript
Speaker:

This is Jack Donovan.

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And you're listening to or watching?

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2 to 3 arbiters

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of the general solar culture.

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And I'm here, as always,

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with my co-host, C.B.

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Robertson, author of many fine books and

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one hell of an electrician

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from what I did.

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But we're getting there.

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We're getting

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brought up.

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But yeah,

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so obviously today

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we are here to discuss books

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eight and nine.

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We decided to put them together

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because, you know,

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we've been doing this for quite a while.

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We don't

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want everyone

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to get bear with our show now,

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since we only talk about Plato

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now for like eight weeks or whatever, but

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three, two,

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we did three and four together

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and now we do eight

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and I guess

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it would be like six weeks or something.

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But total but,

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but I think it's

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a worthwhile investigation.

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I'm getting a lot of out of it

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and I would actually say,

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I mean, I'll let you do

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your normal summary

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before we get into like the nuts

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and bolts of everything. But

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compared to some of the other books,

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some of the other books of this,

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it's such a mixed bag.

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Some of the other books are tedious

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and and you kind of autistic.

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And then

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this at least eight specifically,

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I thought was really like

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I feel like I want to go back to it

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several more times and really

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because there's more to pull out it

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like you could pull so much metaphor

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out of the BS in the drones,

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the stuff that they're doing with stuff.

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And I'm like,

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I really would need to sit down

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and think about that like two more times

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to really get it, you know?

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But the broad strokes, obviously,

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I was listening to it this afternoon

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and I got that. I'm

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enjoying

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a lovely Pimm's cup today.

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This is Pimm's Cup Day

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that a lot of people know what these are,

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unless you're British,

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but it's a specialty British,

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British drink.

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It's like drinking really nice iced tea

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with a little bit of alcohol

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and it's not very much

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I usually,

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but because you know,

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to make it a little more punchy, but

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I'm not right now

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because, you know,

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I have to try and be smart

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for an hour or two.

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So but, but now I take it all started

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because

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I guess we got some fresh cucumbers

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which out of our garden which I didn't,

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you know, are growing.

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I don't pay attention

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to whatever heat is out there,

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but we have fresh cucumbers and

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fresh mint. And I'm like,

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you know what?

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That goes in a pink cup.

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And I'm like, okay, well, that's

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what I'm getting.

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So there you go.

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So, you know,

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that's kind of a cool thing.

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So anyway, but yeah,

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why don't you get started

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and give us your kind of

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overview of books

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and I know you're really excited

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about getting the book tend

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to do doing a wrap up

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because you jumped ahead.

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But take us through books

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eight and nine and

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and tell us what we're talking about.

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Sure.

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Well, I hope anyone else

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who's following along

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is getting a sense of things

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clicking together

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and maybe maybe other things

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that that seemed strange or ambiguous

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suddenly coming together

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just because we ended with book seven,

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with this sense, this very strong sense

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that maybe this wasn't a metaphor

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after all.

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Maybe this was some weird pacing

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and leading where

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you know,

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we introduced the

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Just City

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as a thought experiment,

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but this really

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could happen in real life.

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And we were just describing the nature

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of the philosopher king

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and how he would be educated

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and how it was important

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for the philosopher king

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to focus on

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transcendence and eternal things,

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things like mathematics.

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And then right

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away, the introduction of book,

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we're basically told by Socrates.

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But of course, you know,

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this city wouldn't last forever, right?

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Basically, you know, this

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there's this very strange

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mathematical explanation as to why

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why, if its collapse would be inevitable,

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some something about

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people breathing in the right season.

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But I didn't track that at all.

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I was I was completely okay.

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That's in my notes.

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We'll discuss that as we go on.

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But go ahead.

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So so basically, he he

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with the permission

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of the audience, walks

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through the process of degradation

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from the pure just city,

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which which we're told

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is like the royalist

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or monarch, just kind of

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just society

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down through the different stages

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of degradation.

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And it has a very specific order.

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First, you know,

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he describes the degradation of the

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the royal just society into a Tim ocracy

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or a Tim Archy,

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which is basically a rule by honor.

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And it's

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you have these

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these very two Monarch warrior kings

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that are competing for honor.

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And the diagnosis is

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this comes about from

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an imbalance in the gymnastic and musical

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gymnastics in modern music.

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And what

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sort of a throwback do I want to provide

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with right now?

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And so

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Mark isn't so bad, but

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there is

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this competition within the city for on

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and the love of wealth emerges

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and right and the love of wealth,

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which is executive

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sign of integration for

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a leads to the education system.

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All of an oligarchy is

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we're much more familiar with all of our

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and all of our

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wealth.

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And this

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household

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means

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that

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basically everybody

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who is involved

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in

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the oligarchy, you describe

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how the logic of oligarchy

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leads to the

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love of wealth creates a people who are

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and there's a

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at each stage it's not just like it.

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Plato takes great pains

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to explain

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the psychology of the term archaic man

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or the oligarchical man

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or the democratic demands.

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So just as know this whole investigation

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from book one forward

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or book two forward, I should say,

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is like, Let's explore the justice

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in a man by means of justice in the city.

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There's this sense in which

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we're getting a sense of

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the the

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personality of the of the man.

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Really, it's about the man, not the city.

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The city is just sort of a

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illustrative guide

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through these

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stages of degradation of the individual.

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And so there are familial

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psychological explanations like, oh,

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you know, a man is who is,

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you know, in a Timothy.

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His wife thinks he is

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not ambitious enough

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and not fighting for more money.

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And so she tells his son

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that he's only half a man.

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And so the sun

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comes up with more ambition for money

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and he becomes an informer.

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He becomes a corrupt bureaucrat and and

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the familial.

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It's like we completely threw away

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female equality

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from the earlier stages of the book.

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And we're just we're just working

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on an assumption of normal

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human psychology here again.

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Yeah, which was amusing.

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And so the oligarchic society gives

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way to a democratic society,

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and then the passage

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of the democratic

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into the tyrannical society is

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maybe the most poignant

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and interesting one.

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And he says basically,

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you know, the people,

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because people will give themselves

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so much license and so much freedom

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and have so much entitlement,

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they'll basically go

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after all the rich people

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and saying they're corrupt

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and they're friends of oligarchy

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and the rich people

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who were actually not friends of

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oligarchy will will, by necessity,

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be forced to actually

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become friends of oligarchy.

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And so a tyrant will emerge

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who is at first a friend of the people,

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who is at first all smiles and kindness.

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But then over time

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and there's this very strange

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mythical allusion

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to the eating of human flesh

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and becoming a wolf or a werewolf

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or something to that effect.

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They're just kind of thrown in,

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in the middle of

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connecting

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the tyrants to this wolf like character.

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And then the psychology

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rising of the tyrant

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and his origins are is really saved for

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book nine, but just just depicting

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not just how the society will degrade,

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but the inevitability of its degradation.

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I think,

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first of all,

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it puts the nail in the coffin

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of any

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literal interpretation of the just city.

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Yeah, it's

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I don't see how it would be possible

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for anyone to read book eight immediately

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after reading book seven.

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Whereas this, you know, the

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the Philosopher

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King focuses and is not bothered by

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the many things, the particular things,

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but the pure and the absolutes

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and the, the, the true things, the forms.

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Right.

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And then to immediately say, oh,

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by the way,

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this city,

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this is not one of those forms,

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this is

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the actual city

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would have to degrade over time. So

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even if you accept his

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argument, I think I think any literalism

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sort of dies in book eight.

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But,

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you know, perhaps there is some argument

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to save the forms for literalists.

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We will get to that in a little bit.

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But

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yeah, so so we sort of continue

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straight from book

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eight into book

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nine with the psychology of the tyrant

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who is his tyranny.

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What it culminates in as his

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tyranny is defined by behavior

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where he'll even abuse his own parents.

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And he would like

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to throw away his mother

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for some harlot that he just met

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or he would, or a boyfriend like.

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Yeah, it's explicitly about that as well.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And he would abuse his father and

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even use force against his father

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to take his wealth and property.

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Yeah. And,

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and so

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yeah, we, we

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the young, the young Soros comes to mind.

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Yeah.

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He wants to say about the young Soros.

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Yes. Yeah.

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Yeah. I just popped in my head. Yeah.

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So it was But in book nine you also get

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it was interesting because

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it we conclude the psychology

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izing of the tyrant

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and then we get into um,

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in many ways the most, the,

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we get the pinnacle of the explicit,

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clear delineation

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of his ideas, of the forms.

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And

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as the

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it was sort of alluded to in earlier

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books,

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we were sort of primed to hear this.

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We're even

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hearing from the philosopher Kings about

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in the education of the Philosopher Kings

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about focusing on the true

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and the absolute and so forth.

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But here we actually get the sort of

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classical explication of this idea

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with reference to the table,

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which is sort of the classical example.

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There's, there's one true table,

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and it would be impossible

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for there

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to be more than two pure true tables

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with this sort of

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metaphysical interpretation.

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So, well,

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that's kind of

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and that kind of takes it back to where

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I thought

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the forms were in the first place.

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Like, yeah, like,

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okay, here's this magical okay,

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that makes you feel

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a little bit better about it

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because I was like,

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we had some questions last week and like,

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but that's, that's always the way

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I perceive the forms as being like,

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there's this idea of a table, right?

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Perfect. The perfect table.

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But

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yeah, so

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one of the things that jumped out at me

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was

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you mentioned it earlier,

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it talks about the way that

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the society degrades the perfect society,

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the perfect city degrades,

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and it's all very weird.

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And it's

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that's that weird argument

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about breeding,

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you know,

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like the breeding

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doesn't work

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or whatever, like the people have sex

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with the wrong people.

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And I think that that

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is someone else's argument,

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if I'm not mistaken.

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So what should be done? But

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in the

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context of understanding the man,

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what the fuck does

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that have to do with anything?

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That was one of the things

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that jumped out at me

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like because he did.

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I don't think they really go back

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and explain how that pertains.

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This failure of breeding pertains

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to how the man changes from,

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you know, a

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being in the perfect, you know,

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philosopher king

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kind of mindset

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to going into the democracy.

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Yeah,

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it's like the failure breeding

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seems like a like weird non-sequitur

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like for that.

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I mean,

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you can see why he would say that

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in terms of a city,

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but in terms of a man like

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what does he have?

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Like the wrong influences,

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like what is breeding?

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How does that metaphor work?

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Yeah,

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I mean, the two possible interpretations

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that jumped to mine

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and I have like 30% confidence

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in either of these.

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So take this of the grain of salt

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and add your own to this.

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But on the one hand,

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it could be interjecting

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sort of

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the real world phenomenon of entropy

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within an actual city

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to sort of blow apart people

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taking the metaphor too literally.

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So it's a look at

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look at what happened with

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I mean, we're not at the stage

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where Sparta actually collapsed,

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but for people who know

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a little bit about the history of Sparta,

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Sparta is one of the

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only nations in the world

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that eventually collapsed

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from insufficient immigration.

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It was so

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insular and the rules

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pertaining to its ruling

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class were so strict

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that its ruling class

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actually dwindled in size

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to what was basically nothing.

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And they had no new

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they had no new

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they didn't have that gadfly

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to spark more life

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and energy into their society.

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They basically stagnated to death.

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Almost no other societies

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suffer that fate.

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That's normally they go the other way.

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Right.

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But but it feels like he's

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he's just using math

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mathematics in a human context

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to imply a sort of inevitable decline.

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That's one possible interpretation.

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Another possible interpretation

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is if you listen to

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certain kinds of

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like call in therapy shows

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like the Stefon Molineux shows,

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sort of like the 2014 era,

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John Delany

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does this today

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on like Dave Ramsey's channel.

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They like figuring out

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people's problems

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by means of sort of putting everything,

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childhood traumas

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or experiences of that nature.

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It's I think we've reached a point

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today in 2024

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where it's been kind of overdone, but

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maybe there are some some

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metaphorical use.

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There is like, oh, there's some

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some problem

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in the family

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that leads to a degradation of the soul

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down the road,

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perhaps again, low, low confidence with

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with both of these interpretations,

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but they're possibilities.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Well I mean his

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I thought his explanation of how

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you mentioned it

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as far as how it degrades into democracy,

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like borderline,

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almost like Freudian or something

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very like psychological like,

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oh well his mother

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won't think he's powerful

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and his father is more powerful.

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So to kind of

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tell him that his dad's a pussy

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and then that you should be more

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ambitious and like, make him fired up.

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And then that's what

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turns him into

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like a great man of honor,

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which is kind of a that's

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I'm not going to say

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that that doesn't happen,

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but that seems like an odd path to take.

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Usually it's a strong a strong paternal

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influence is what,

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like I'm trying to please dad.

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Yeah.

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And I become very like,

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associated with honor or,

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or it's a really highly

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elevated and strong father who is absent,

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who's not there or is not giving

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enough affirmation to the son.

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Right.

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And so the son then,

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you know, tries to live up to

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and honor their absent father for the

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for the affirmation.

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They never earn that affirmation.

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They never got

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that that I think

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would be a more sort of conventional

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psychoanalysis of

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maybe an Andrew Tate type character.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Like a

549

:

you know, But I mean, yeah,

550

:

because someone thinking

551

:

their dad is weak

552

:

can go

553

:

either way,

554

:

you know, he can go either way, like

555

:

my dad is weak.

556

:

So that means a different kind of

557

:

it can create a variety of daddy issues,

558

:

you know, like

559

:

if they think their dad is weak.

560

:

So we're just not ambitious enough.

561

:

It's kind of a different thing.

562

:

And and the other thing is that

563

:

that almost kicks it down.

564

:

I mean, you can see that

565

:

working with ambition

566

:

more like your dad doesn't,

567

:

your dad's poor and we should be

568

:

rich, you know, like,

569

:

like if you were more ambitious,

570

:

you wouldn't be poor. That that actually.

571

:

But that would be a different stage

572

:

of the society

573

:

that that would kick it to,

574

:

not the society of like the more

575

:

the statistics

576

:

that you describe

577

:

that you describe that in the

578

:

the Democrat the

579

:

the isn't that that's the democratic

580

:

to the oligarchic man

581

:

is the worst that the man of honor

582

:

who gets ruined by an unjust society

583

:

or and loses all his wealth.

584

:

And so the son says, well, I'm

585

:

going to I'm going to be super wealthy.

586

:

Yeah.

587

:

And basically restore him.

588

:

And there you get

589

:

not an Alex Soros,

590

:

but kind of a George Soros. Right?

591

:

Right. Yes.

592

:

Yeah.

593

:

There's

594

:

there's an

595

:

interesting thing

596

:

with that kind of transition to about,

597

:

you know

598

:

it when we read like the data

599

:

and so forth

600

:

like they're praying

601

:

for like wealth and victory

602

:

at the same time.

603

:

Right.

604

:

And one imagines that that's

605

:

those two things are pretty

606

:

closely tied together,

607

:

which makes he kind of portrays it

608

:

in that kind of way that,

609

:

you know,

610

:

wealth and victory,

611

:

you know,

612

:

like all these raiding societies,

613

:

because we're talking

614

:

about basically raiding societies,

615

:

we're talking about

616

:

the Homeric societies.

617

:

I mean, those guys he made societies.

618

:

Yeah,

619

:

he may is honor

620

:

in the form of booty, essentially. Right.

621

:

Which is how we get democracy.

622

:

I had to make sure where that

623

:

word came from.

624

:

And that's what gave me.

625

:

It's a route to make.

626

:

Oh, yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

627

:

Because I was like, Tim, you know, But

628

:

what's all this about? Tim? But,

629

:

but you know, it comes.

630

:

But yeah,

631

:

I mean a lot of these societies

632

:

that are

633

:

going after

634

:

victory are also going after wealth

635

:

at the same time,

636

:

like they go

637

:

and they take their trophies

638

:

and their booty and whatever.

639

:

And then the king,

640

:

the good king distributes

641

:

the booty

642

:

to all the people who participated.

643

:

We're talking about Vikings

644

:

or like the Vedic Warriors

645

:

or all these

646

:

raiding societies, like,

647

:

yeah, distributes the wealth.

648

:

So then the shifts from the t market into

649

:

the oligarchy is

650

:

like less shift in external

651

:

demonstration and value,

652

:

but it's a shift in psychology as to

653

:

why are you pursuing wealth

654

:

or you're pursuing wealth

655

:

because it demonstrates

656

:

how honorable you are,

657

:

or are you pursuing wealth

658

:

kind of for its own sake

659

:

and the oligarchy?

660

:

Coleman This is actually,

661

:

if not a coward,

662

:

then at least he's not particularly

663

:

concerned about honor.

664

:

And he's not

665

:

going to to run into fight necessarily

666

:

where we're Honor's on the line.

667

:

It's about the money.

668

:

Where's the

669

:

the the to market man to democratic

670

:

anyways

671

:

I don't

672

:

how you conjugate that definitively

673

:

but the Tim Socratic man is like

674

:

he wants wealth

675

:

because it shows how honorable he is.

676

:

It's it's the proof of his value

677

:

which you know there's so many parts

678

:

in this

679

:

that I can't figure out

680

:

what stage we're at in platonic

681

:

like in it's tonic progression

682

:

because this chapter eight

683

:

specifically like book eight

684

:

specifically is

685

:

quotable

686

:

the whole way through about problems

687

:

with government.

688

:

But our society has all of them.

689

:

It's like, like it's I'm like, I'm like,

690

:

which which one?

691

:

I mean,

692

:

not like

693

:

and that's the thing with these systems

694

:

is that

695

:

people over

696

:

try to

697

:

try to fit the situation to the system

698

:

rather than like evaluating the system

699

:

as it's functioning at right now.

700

:

You know, like what

701

:

here's what's happening right now

702

:

versus like,

703

:

okay, that was a system

704

:

that's theoretical.

705

:

Let's not over apply that.

706

:

But there's just a lot of great qualities

707

:

to like the things

708

:

that are happening now.

709

:

You know, his he just go ahead

710

:

Greg knowledge is

711

:

explication of hesiod's

712

:

works and days generations

713

:

you know we've we've got the the earlier

714

:

we heard

715

:

the gold

716

:

population

717

:

the silver population in our city

718

:

but in Hessians works and days

719

:

and Hessian was a

720

:

contemporary of Homer and a poet.

721

:

So I don't know if we're supposed

722

:

to censor him or not,

723

:

if we're going to invoke his tools here.

724

:

But do you describes

725

:

the generations of men he's sort of the

726

:

the the

727

:

the father of the

728

:

or at least the first excavator

729

:

and writing

730

:

of the like generational cycle theory,

731

:

the sort of write

732

:

good men, create good times, create bad,

733

:

and then create bad times

734

:

that cycle is has it

735

:

it's his gold, silver,

736

:

bronze, iron,

737

:

nameless generations, right.

738

:

And this cycling

739

:

and what Greg Nash points out,

740

:

because it gives these long descriptions

741

:

of the psychology of these types,

742

:

Greg now says these are

743

:

the gold generation

744

:

are the positive

745

:

qualities of cult heroes, and the bronze

746

:

generation are the negative qualities

747

:

of cult heroes.

748

:

The Silver Generation

749

:

are the positive cult qualities of

750

:

cults, adherents

751

:

of cult practitioners of citizens

752

:

and the Iron Generation.

753

:

Cost of debt shows off

754

:

all the negative qualities.

755

:

So the worst versions.

756

:

And so what you see in any story

757

:

is all

758

:

the characters have all the traits.

759

:

Achilles is gold and he is bronze.

760

:

You know,

761

:

these cult practitioners are silver

762

:

and they are iron.

763

:

All of the generations are in each

764

:

literal generation.

765

:

And I think it's

766

:

the fact that,

767

:

you know,

768

:

Socrates was saying,

769

:

and you'll see this in

770

:

an oligarchic societies

771

:

and golf.com will say,

772

:

I am very familiar with

773

:

that, I've seen it outside

774

:

And then but he'll say the same thing

775

:

about another society

776

:

like the timber, timber cratic

777

:

or the democratic.

778

:

They're of course

779

:

living in the Athenian democracy

780

:

at the time of this writing.

781

:

So one gets the sense that not only

782

:

are we living through

783

:

all of these different phases at once,

784

:

but perhaps they were living

785

:

through all these phases

786

:

at once 2400 years ago as well, right.

787

:

Which kind of, you know,

788

:

just degrades the

789

:

the value of the system

790

:

to a certain extent. Yeah.

791

:

That's a

792

:

we're just talking

793

:

about different characteristics

794

:

that are happening

795

:

at the same time, different people.

796

:

And and that's

797

:

where it is interesting

798

:

because we're talking

799

:

about different kinds of men

800

:

and different,

801

:

you know, if we take it back

802

:

to talking about difference,

803

:

it makes more sense than talking

804

:

about different stages of government

805

:

because those things

806

:

don't always go together

807

:

in the same way that they're describing.

808

:

Yeah, it's a good it's a nice it's a nice

809

:

just so story.

810

:

But like,

811

:

those things

812

:

don't actually always happen in that way.

813

:

It's it's as you mentioned

814

:

I actually thought of the whatever

815

:

bad times great strong man whatever

816

:

metaphor you know statement as well

817

:

while I was listening to this

818

:

and it seems like another attempt

819

:

to create like this is what happens

820

:

and then this is what happens

821

:

and that's what happens.

822

:

And it's like

823

:

it doesn't really necessarily happen

824

:

that way.

825

:

As you said, with Sparta,

826

:

it happened a different way.

827

:

And like

828

:

with our society,

829

:

one of the one of my notes

830

:

that I think I wrote down with

831

:

I freestyle

832

:

with without looking at it, but

833

:

I was thinking about,

834

:

you know, oligarchy and

835

:

so forth and like the pure

836

:

valuation of money,

837

:

like,

838

:

like the people that become in power

839

:

in oligarchy,

840

:

because he's talking

841

:

kind of positively about the people

842

:

who come to power in oligarchies.

843

:

And what I wanted to bring up was that

844

:

according to

845

:

that book on human universals,

846

:

I think Donald Brown, it's title, but

847

:

according that book on human universals

848

:

oligarchy is actually

849

:

the human universal form of government.

850

:

Like,

851

:

that's the one that we always actually

852

:

that's what's actually happening.

853

:

Like, oh,

854

:

and it's an ugly truth, but I believe it.

855

:

Yeah.

856

:

Like that's how shit actually runs.

857

:

And the thing is, is that

858

:

normally that would make a lot of sense

859

:

in terms of

860

:

if you're a landowner who is running

861

:

multiple things,

862

:

multiple areas of land,

863

:

multiple companies, multiple investments,

864

:

multiple things across the board,

865

:

you're actually fairly

866

:

competent individual

867

:

and your skill is management.

868

:

And to have you managing society

869

:

as well

870

:

is not really that big of a stretch.

871

:

I mean, in America, I mean that's like

872

:

that's

873

:

we've kind of unfortunately elevated shoe

874

:

salesman like the people

875

:

who are best selling

876

:

rather than people

877

:

we're best at managing.

878

:

But well,

879

:

the idea

880

:

that like a mid-level of wealth

881

:

which to

882

:

guys like us

883

:

is like already obscenely above our heads

884

:

in terms of the numbers.

885

:

But but then you get

886

:

a guy like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk,

887

:

they're not just salesmen, you know?

888

:

Well, yeah,

889

:

yeah, well, that's what I mean.

890

:

Like America

891

:

elevates Salesman

892

:

because you have to sell

893

:

yourself to the people

894

:

and that's what they're good at.

895

:

Whereas the, you know, like master,

896

:

master, like managers

897

:

who are really doing stuff behind

898

:

the scenes are not

899

:

maybe as much interested

900

:

in being public figures

901

:

or are not as interested in selling,

902

:

but they're big idea guys, right?

903

:

You know, so they they hire,

904

:

they hire people to sell for them.

905

:

Whereas like the

906

:

the presidential candidate

907

:

has to be kind of a personality

908

:

and Yeah, and be a salesman.

909

:

So that's kind of the difference.

910

:

And, and I was thinking of that

911

:

in terms of, you know,

912

:

some of the problems with,

913

:

you know, the

914

:

the way our society is oriented.

915

:

And I've always said

916

:

this is my criticisms of like

917

:

I won't say capitalism because that's a

918

:

almost a meaningless word.

919

:

But the way ours is set up

920

:

in terms of like the stock market

921

:

and the way that things like that work,

922

:

I mean, there's

923

:

so much focus on short term investment

924

:

and short term gain

925

:

rather than like long term gain,

926

:

whereas like when you had monarchs,

927

:

there's like a long term investment

928

:

because there's legacy. Yes.

929

:

And then there's and if you have

930

:

like your Andrew

931

:

Carnegie type, like robber baron kind of

932

:

those guys

933

:

wanted their names on buildings

934

:

and they wanted to like, create a legacy.

935

:

And it was the same thing.

936

:

But now you have people who

937

:

some of the wealthiest people,

938

:

we don't even know who they are,

939

:

and they just kind of like run shit.

940

:

And because they're doing short

941

:

term thing

942

:

buying out companies, this one sucks.

943

:

Let's buy it and turn it into this one.

944

:

You know, like they're doing that kind of

945

:

it's it

946

:

seems a lot more oriented

947

:

towards short term investing.

948

:

Even the way that our society

949

:

is is oriented that way.

950

:

Like even the way they buy houses, it's

951

:

buy houses to like to flip.

952

:

So can I,

953

:

can I read a short poem that I think

954

:

is a transition from exactly the point

955

:

you're talking about? Yes.

956

:

To It's a poem by Ezra Pound.

957

:

So who's a bit of a controversial figure

958

:

in some circles,

959

:

but it's sure it's called

960

:

you Sura or Canto something,

961

:

and it's about usury.

962

:

And I feel like

963

:

it touches in with the oligarchical man.

964

:

But it let it's, it's like a segway

965

:

into this conversation

966

:

about the forms

967

:

that we get into in Book nine

968

:

and who is happier

969

:

and is the philosophical man

970

:

really 727 times happier than the

971

:

the tyrants.

972

:

But we'll get into that in a minute.

973

:

Ezra Pound writes with you, sir,

974

:

I have no man House of Good Stone.

975

:

Each block cut smooth and well-fitting.

976

:

The design might cover their face

977

:

with you.

978

:

Sir, I have no man that painted

979

:

paradise on his church wall.

980

:

Pays it loose or wear a virgin.

981

:

Receive this message

982

:

and halo projects from incision

983

:

with you, sir.

984

:

I'll see if no man Gonzaga,

985

:

his heirs and his concubines.

986

:

No pictures

987

:

made to endure nor to live with,

988

:

but is made to sell and sell quickly

989

:

with you Sura sinned against nature.

990

:

Is thy bread ever more of stale rags

991

:

as thy bread dry as paper

992

:

with no mountain of wheat,

993

:

no strong flour with you,

994

:

Sura the line grows thick with you.

995

:

Sara is no clear demarcation,

996

:

and no man can find sites

997

:

for his dwelling

998

:

stonecutters kept from his stone weavers

999

:

kept from his loom

:

00:31:40,164 --> 00:31:43,298

with you, Sura war comes not to market

:

00:31:43,631 --> 00:31:46,098

sheep bring us no gain with you Sura

:

00:31:46,431 --> 00:31:48,198

you Sura is a marine You,

:

00:31:48,198 --> 00:31:49,164

sir a blunt It's

:

00:31:49,164 --> 00:31:50,898

the needle in the maid's hand

:

00:31:50,898 --> 00:31:52,864

and stop with the spinners Cunning

:

00:31:52,864 --> 00:31:55,131

Pietro Lombardo came not by you, sir,

:

00:31:55,664 --> 00:31:56,431

to choke.

:

00:31:56,431 --> 00:31:57,598

Not by you, sir.

:

00:31:57,598 --> 00:32:00,931

Not paddle out, Francesca Swan The

:

00:32:01,231 --> 00:32:01,798

not by you,

:

00:32:01,798 --> 00:32:03,631

Sura, nor was La

:

00:32:03,631 --> 00:32:05,798

Colonia painted in not by you.

:

00:32:05,798 --> 00:32:09,331

Zara Angelico Cannot Ambrogio produce

:

00:32:09,931 --> 00:32:10,398

him? No.

:

00:32:10,398 --> 00:32:11,231

Church of Cut

:

00:32:11,231 --> 00:32:13,898

Stone signed Adam on this account.

:

00:32:14,531 --> 00:32:15,431

Not by you, sir.

:

00:32:15,431 --> 00:32:17,031

Central theme, not by you.

:

00:32:17,031 --> 00:32:19,064

So I say Hilaire, you sir

:

00:32:19,064 --> 00:32:20,598

rustic the chisel

:

00:32:20,598 --> 00:32:22,798

it rust if the craft and the craftsman

:

00:32:23,631 --> 00:32:25,631

it knife the thread in the loom

:

00:32:25,898 --> 00:32:26,731

none learn us

:

00:32:26,731 --> 00:32:29,164

to weave gold in her pattern

:

00:32:29,164 --> 00:32:32,131

Asura hath a canker by you sura come

:

00:32:32,131 --> 00:32:34,031

Why is unbridled

:

00:32:34,031 --> 00:32:36,231

emerald find us no memory

:

00:32:36,231 --> 00:32:38,531

You saw a slave The child in the womb

:

00:32:38,998 --> 00:32:40,998

is if the young man's courting

:

00:32:41,198 --> 00:32:43,531

It has brought palsy to bed.

:

00:32:43,531 --> 00:32:45,298

Life between the young bride

:

00:32:45,298 --> 00:32:47,898

and her bridegroom can't run the term

:

00:32:48,331 --> 00:32:50,631

they have brought horrors for illnesses.

:

00:32:51,264 --> 00:32:53,964

Corpses are set to banquet at behest

:

00:32:54,064 --> 00:32:54,798

of you, sir.

:

00:32:56,264 --> 00:32:57,764

And it's

:

00:32:57,764 --> 00:33:00,931

a it's describing the corruption

:

00:33:01,331 --> 00:33:04,331

that, you know, it's not just money.

:

00:33:04,564 --> 00:33:05,631

You you

:

00:33:06,031 --> 00:33:07,298

there's a reading of this

:

00:33:07,298 --> 00:33:09,198

where Ezra Pound says this is

:

00:33:09,198 --> 00:33:10,231

this is so misunderstood.

:

00:33:10,231 --> 00:33:12,164

Usury is not just interest

:

00:33:12,164 --> 00:33:13,931

user, it's not just charging interest.

:

00:33:13,931 --> 00:33:16,931

Something usury is charging

:

00:33:17,464 --> 00:33:20,397

for the privilege of the usage of money,

:

00:33:21,331 --> 00:33:23,031

which is different.

:

00:33:23,031 --> 00:33:26,731

And it leads to

:

00:33:26,997 --> 00:33:29,431

shifts in perception.

:

00:33:29,431 --> 00:33:32,331

And I think I think when what

:

00:33:32,364 --> 00:33:33,431

we see in Book nine,

:

00:33:33,431 --> 00:33:34,964

which is the conclusion

:

00:33:34,964 --> 00:33:37,031

of the psychology of the tyrant

:

00:33:37,697 --> 00:33:39,197

and suddenly shifts into this

:

00:33:39,197 --> 00:33:42,331

talk about the forms and the true thing

:

00:33:42,664 --> 00:33:45,131

as opposed to

:

00:33:46,164 --> 00:33:49,464

these images and these discrete things

:

00:33:49,464 --> 00:33:51,564

connected to these psychologies

:

00:33:51,564 --> 00:33:53,597

of these various

:

00:33:53,764 --> 00:33:55,531

oligarchical and technocratic

:

00:33:55,531 --> 00:33:56,264

and democratic

:

00:33:56,264 --> 00:33:57,697

and tyrannical men

:

00:33:57,697 --> 00:34:00,231

is a is a psychology of misperception.

:

00:34:00,231 --> 00:34:01,564

And the person I was

:

00:34:01,564 --> 00:34:02,864

talking with this poem about

:

00:34:04,531 --> 00:34:05,464

it, it it

:

00:34:05,464 --> 00:34:06,364

occurred to me sort

:

00:34:06,364 --> 00:34:07,531

of as I was describing this,

:

00:34:07,531 --> 00:34:09,264

like this is how people

:

00:34:09,264 --> 00:34:11,297

buy things sometimes

:

00:34:11,297 --> 00:34:13,831

suppose you are buying going to buy a car

:

00:34:14,564 --> 00:34:16,397

and you've got five men

:

00:34:16,397 --> 00:34:18,964

who are going to buy a car.

:

00:34:18,964 --> 00:34:21,031

One man is an auto mechanic,

:

00:34:22,197 --> 00:34:26,131

one guy is Andrew Tate.

:

00:34:26,131 --> 00:34:28,297

One guy is

:

00:34:28,297 --> 00:34:30,764

whatever the top Rothschild is right now.

:

00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:32,764

I don't know who that is, but

:

00:34:32,764 --> 00:34:35,631

why is super wealthy guys?

:

00:34:35,631 --> 00:34:37,297

And the fourth guy

:

00:34:37,297 --> 00:34:39,097

is fill in the blank

:

00:34:39,097 --> 00:34:40,764

with your democratic then

:

00:34:40,764 --> 00:34:41,897

and then the fifth is your

:

00:34:41,897 --> 00:34:45,031

your tyrannical men like the mindset

:

00:34:45,397 --> 00:34:47,564

of how and suppose they choose cars

:

00:34:47,564 --> 00:34:48,931

based upon the psychology

:

00:34:48,931 --> 00:34:50,631

of these five categories.

:

00:34:50,631 --> 00:34:52,731

You can easily imagine,

:

00:34:52,731 --> 00:34:52,964

you know,

:

00:34:52,964 --> 00:34:54,264

the auto mechanic

:

00:34:54,264 --> 00:34:57,064

is going to choose his car based upon

:

00:34:57,564 --> 00:35:01,097

the mechanical excellence of the design.

:

00:35:02,331 --> 00:35:04,897

You know, like there's a he's like,

:

00:35:05,064 --> 00:35:08,197

I care about how well the engine is made,

:

00:35:08,497 --> 00:35:10,297

so he might go with a Porsche 911.

:

00:35:10,297 --> 00:35:11,564

I'm not a car person.

:

00:35:11,564 --> 00:35:13,164

I'm just like throwing out something

:

00:35:13,164 --> 00:35:15,231

I've heard that mechanics like.

:

00:35:15,264 --> 00:35:16,197

So I'm

:

00:35:16,197 --> 00:35:16,964

I'm not I'm

:

00:35:16,964 --> 00:35:19,097

not the philosopher king of cars here.

:

00:35:20,064 --> 00:35:21,197

Right. But

:

00:35:22,031 --> 00:35:23,697

but you know what?

:

00:35:23,697 --> 00:35:26,064

What's the psychology

:

00:35:26,064 --> 00:35:28,164

that would cause someone to choose?

:

00:35:28,831 --> 00:35:31,531

For example, a Bugatti

:

00:35:31,531 --> 00:35:33,964

is the sort of person who buys a Bugatti,

:

00:35:34,964 --> 00:35:37,831

like just enamored with the details

:

00:35:37,831 --> 00:35:39,931

of the design

:

00:35:39,997 --> 00:35:41,931

of like the engine,

:

00:35:41,931 --> 00:35:44,597

or are they getting it as a status symbol

:

00:35:45,064 --> 00:35:46,597

or are they a step

:

00:35:46,597 --> 00:35:50,297

removed from excellence

:

00:35:50,531 --> 00:35:51,897

from the sort of truth

:

00:35:51,897 --> 00:35:53,931

of the thing in itself?

:

00:35:53,931 --> 00:35:56,197

And we have this wonderful illustration

:

00:35:56,197 --> 00:35:58,764

at the Oh, no, that's important.

:

00:35:58,797 --> 00:35:59,364

I'm sorry.

:

00:35:59,364 --> 00:36:01,864

I will I will not go there just yet. I'm

:

00:36:03,264 --> 00:36:04,631

jumping ahead of myself there

:

00:36:04,631 --> 00:36:05,031

a little bit.

:

00:36:05,031 --> 00:36:05,431

But

:

00:36:07,331 --> 00:36:08,631

like that's

:

00:36:08,631 --> 00:36:11,964

where we talk about images and stuff.

:

00:36:11,964 --> 00:36:13,431

So there's a way

:

00:36:13,431 --> 00:36:15,364

to read all this psychology

:

00:36:15,364 --> 00:36:18,031

izing of the different kinds of men

:

00:36:18,264 --> 00:36:19,031

who are represented

:

00:36:19,031 --> 00:36:21,164

by these different ways of running a city

:

00:36:21,164 --> 00:36:24,631

as sort of degrees of separation

:

00:36:24,631 --> 00:36:26,064

from the truth.

:

00:36:26,064 --> 00:36:28,931

And this truth isn't

:

00:36:28,931 --> 00:36:31,864

necessarily a metaphysical truth like,

:

00:36:31,864 --> 00:36:34,331

not like what is real in the world,

:

00:36:34,864 --> 00:36:37,597

but more close to the question of

:

00:36:38,031 --> 00:36:40,264

where is happiness,

:

00:36:40,264 --> 00:36:41,431

which was the question

:

00:36:41,431 --> 00:36:43,897

which started this whole interrogation

:

00:36:44,397 --> 00:36:47,497

as who is happier, the just man

:

00:36:47,497 --> 00:36:50,697

or the tyrant?

:

00:36:50,697 --> 00:36:53,664

And, you know, Socrates says, oh,

:

00:36:53,797 --> 00:36:56,831

the tyrant is is you

:

00:36:56,897 --> 00:37:01,497

727 times or 725 times less happy

:

00:37:01,831 --> 00:37:03,097

than the

:

00:37:03,397 --> 00:37:06,331

whichever one is three times five, two or

:

00:37:06,364 --> 00:37:07,731

three times three to the fifth power.

:

00:37:08,697 --> 00:37:10,131

Someone can do the math for him.

:

00:37:10,131 --> 00:37:10,597

Sure.

:

00:37:10,997 --> 00:37:14,131

But yeah, like what he's describing

:

00:37:14,131 --> 00:37:17,264

are degrees of separation from

:

00:37:19,564 --> 00:37:21,731

like true value.

:

00:37:23,331 --> 00:37:25,597

Because if you think about it,

:

00:37:25,597 --> 00:37:27,764

honor is sort of a

:

00:37:28,797 --> 00:37:30,897

it's a stand in for value.

:

00:37:31,564 --> 00:37:33,197

And money

:

00:37:33,564 --> 00:37:34,597

in the form of tea.

:

00:37:34,597 --> 00:37:39,431

May is a stand in for honor.

:

00:37:39,431 --> 00:37:40,497

And then

:

00:37:40,497 --> 00:37:41,597

you go down the way

:

00:37:41,597 --> 00:37:44,597

Democratic popularity is a sort of stand

:

00:37:44,597 --> 00:37:48,431

in for tea May and then just

:

00:37:48,431 --> 00:37:51,064

sensuous pleasures are

:

00:37:52,297 --> 00:37:53,764

below even that I don't even know

:

00:37:53,764 --> 00:37:55,064

if those are standard for anything.

:

00:37:55,064 --> 00:37:56,097

That's just

:

00:37:56,997 --> 00:37:57,431

yeah,

:

00:37:57,431 --> 00:37:59,297

he would say slavery to one's desires.

:

00:37:59,297 --> 00:38:00,931

Or maybe a better way of putting

:

00:38:00,931 --> 00:38:02,431

that is addiction,

:

00:38:02,431 --> 00:38:03,331

which is maybe a little bit

:

00:38:03,331 --> 00:38:05,931

more emotionally punchy in a day of

:

00:38:06,597 --> 00:38:09,664

an age of quick pornography and

:

00:38:09,664 --> 00:38:10,331

street drugs.

:

00:38:11,897 --> 00:38:17,164

Right, Right.

:

00:38:17,164 --> 00:38:17,964

So I think

:

00:38:17,964 --> 00:38:19,464

what he actually said was the most

:

00:38:19,464 --> 00:38:21,031

unhappy was like,

:

00:38:21,031 --> 00:38:22,164

there's the personality

:

00:38:22,164 --> 00:38:23,764

who could be a tyrant.

:

00:38:23,764 --> 00:38:24,797

Oh, yes. Yeah.

:

00:38:24,797 --> 00:38:27,797

But the most unhappy is the tyrant

:

00:38:27,797 --> 00:38:29,364

who actually finds the opportunity

:

00:38:29,364 --> 00:38:30,864

to become one.

:

00:38:30,864 --> 00:38:31,997

Like like you.

:

00:38:31,997 --> 00:38:32,697

He's actually like,

:

00:38:32,697 --> 00:38:33,664

because there's plenty of like,

:

00:38:33,664 --> 00:38:35,831

would be tyrants and petty tyrants.

:

00:38:35,831 --> 00:38:37,097

Yes. Yes.

:

00:38:37,097 --> 00:38:38,131

But the ones

:

00:38:38,131 --> 00:38:39,364

who are actually like, empowered

:

00:38:39,364 --> 00:38:41,664

to, like, do the thing

:

00:38:42,464 --> 00:38:43,697

are probably the most unhappy

:

00:38:43,697 --> 00:38:46,531

of all in the sense of a him,

:

00:38:46,997 --> 00:38:48,097

which makes it like

:

00:38:48,097 --> 00:38:48,897

they're obviously always

:

00:38:48,897 --> 00:38:50,497

looking over their shoulder

:

00:38:50,497 --> 00:38:52,931

waiting to get assassinated and living in

:

00:38:52,931 --> 00:38:55,997

like a state of stress

:

00:38:55,997 --> 00:38:56,330

know.

:

00:38:56,597 --> 00:38:58,097

And the depiction

:

00:38:58,097 --> 00:39:00,230

is that their own senses

:

00:39:00,230 --> 00:39:04,030

and desires are at war with each other.

:

00:39:04,030 --> 00:39:05,564

And you get you get a sense of this

:

00:39:05,564 --> 00:39:07,230

in his psych psychology

:

00:39:07,230 --> 00:39:08,864

izing of the Democratic men,

:

00:39:08,864 --> 00:39:12,430

and they're almost entertaining it of it.

:

00:39:12,697 --> 00:39:13,230

They're almost like,

:

00:39:13,230 --> 00:39:14,097

there's something charming

:

00:39:14,097 --> 00:39:14,730

about the man

:

00:39:14,730 --> 00:39:17,964

who wants to be a monk for this period

:

00:39:17,964 --> 00:39:18,664

and then decides

:

00:39:18,664 --> 00:39:19,764

to drink for a little while,

:

00:39:19,764 --> 00:39:20,430

but then

:

00:39:20,664 --> 00:39:21,297

decides to

:

00:39:21,297 --> 00:39:23,597

give up drinking to lose weight

:

00:39:23,597 --> 00:39:24,830

for for some period of time.

:

00:39:24,830 --> 00:39:26,930

That's like normal society.

:

00:39:27,797 --> 00:39:29,364

Like like I was thinking about

:

00:39:29,364 --> 00:39:32,030

I mean, I mean, in terms of our society,

:

00:39:33,597 --> 00:39:34,497

that's something I've talked

:

00:39:34,497 --> 00:39:34,964

about

:

00:39:35,130 --> 00:39:37,230

in the context of

:

00:39:37,230 --> 00:39:39,230

like the empire of nothing.

:

00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:41,397

And the thing that it's not that

:

00:39:41,564 --> 00:39:43,530

any of that is bad.

:

00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:45,864

I mean, that's almost like the

:

00:39:45,864 --> 00:39:46,864

they don't say

:

00:39:46,864 --> 00:39:47,930

they even seem

:

00:39:47,930 --> 00:39:50,064

to be quite charming for a time.

:

00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:53,064

Yeah, well, the

:

00:39:53,064 --> 00:39:53,964

like I've often called it

:

00:39:53,964 --> 00:39:55,030

the Joe Rogan syndrome

:

00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:56,664

because it used to be

:

00:39:56,730 --> 00:39:58,964

whatever dudes were into on Joe,

:

00:39:58,964 --> 00:40:00,630

whoever Joe Rogan had in the guests

:

00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:01,264

all of a sudden

:

00:40:01,264 --> 00:40:02,830

that like everybody was into that

:

00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:04,230

whatever thing,

:

00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:06,464

you know, like if someone had paleo,

:

00:40:06,464 --> 00:40:07,430

like everybody was paleo

:

00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:08,330

that week or whatever,

:

00:40:08,330 --> 00:40:09,630

like it just became like,

:

00:40:09,630 --> 00:40:11,264

whatever Joe was into that

:

00:40:11,264 --> 00:40:12,797

and had on the show, that was what

:

00:40:12,797 --> 00:40:14,397

all the dudes were all of a sudden, like,

:

00:40:14,397 --> 00:40:15,130

I need to do that.

:

00:40:15,130 --> 00:40:15,597

And you see that

:

00:40:15,597 --> 00:40:16,730

with Twitter culture

:

00:40:16,730 --> 00:40:17,764

where I mean, they famously said,

:

00:40:17,764 --> 00:40:19,397

Your balls are like

:

00:40:19,397 --> 00:40:20,064

all like

:

00:40:20,064 --> 00:40:21,064

you can just put something out there

:

00:40:21,064 --> 00:40:21,964

and all the guys will do it.

:

00:40:23,530 --> 00:40:26,364

And so you have that out there.

:

00:40:26,364 --> 00:40:28,264

And that's something that's happens.

:

00:40:28,264 --> 00:40:31,864

But also in the sense of,

:

00:40:31,864 --> 00:40:33,264

you know, the government

:

00:40:33,497 --> 00:40:34,430

putting out propaganda

:

00:40:34,430 --> 00:40:36,697

to influence the things that you're like,

:

00:40:37,797 --> 00:40:38,264

you know, like it

:

00:40:38,264 --> 00:40:39,730

or I mean, marketing was doing it

:

00:40:39,730 --> 00:40:40,464

before that.

:

00:40:40,464 --> 00:40:40,897

I mean, well,

:

00:40:40,897 --> 00:40:41,797

they've both been doing that

:

00:40:41,797 --> 00:40:44,397

for a long time. But,

:

00:40:44,430 --> 00:40:45,897

you know, these influence of

:

00:40:45,897 --> 00:40:48,364

external influences kind of

:

00:40:48,364 --> 00:40:51,097

I've described it as plankton, You're

:

00:40:51,097 --> 00:40:52,997

basically like floating on the wave of

:

00:40:52,997 --> 00:40:54,464

like whatever, like comes by.

:

00:40:54,464 --> 00:40:55,697

And this is where you go

:

00:40:55,697 --> 00:40:57,197

depending on whatever wave comes through.

:

00:40:57,197 --> 00:40:59,364

And so if like if everybody's like

:

00:40:59,364 --> 00:41:00,830

taking ice baths,

:

00:41:00,830 --> 00:41:02,430

it's like if there's like then,

:

00:41:02,430 --> 00:41:02,764

you know,

:

00:41:02,764 --> 00:41:03,864

the ice bath wave

:

00:41:03,864 --> 00:41:05,030

and everybody gets on that

:

00:41:05,030 --> 00:41:06,297

and that's

:

00:41:06,297 --> 00:41:07,230

it's very human

:

00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:09,564

and normal to a certain extent. Like

:

00:41:10,530 --> 00:41:11,330

I always

:

00:41:11,330 --> 00:41:12,464

question how much we

:

00:41:12,464 --> 00:41:13,697

need to pathologize things

:

00:41:13,697 --> 00:41:15,764

that are like functionally normal,

:

00:41:15,764 --> 00:41:16,630

like, okay,

:

00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:17,930

a lot of people are doing this,

:

00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:19,130

I guess I'll do it right now.

:

00:41:19,130 --> 00:41:19,497

I mean,

:

00:41:19,497 --> 00:41:21,630

is not that really that's not bad,

:

00:41:23,364 --> 00:41:25,097

but I mean, that's just normal.

:

00:41:25,097 --> 00:41:26,497

Like that's what people do.

:

00:41:26,497 --> 00:41:29,530

But at the same time, I think

:

00:41:30,030 --> 00:41:31,030

the important part is to have

:

00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:32,964

some kind of center

:

00:41:33,397 --> 00:41:35,197

like this is what actually

:

00:41:35,197 --> 00:41:36,097

I believe

:

00:41:36,097 --> 00:41:38,764

and to know where the boundaries are.

:

00:41:38,764 --> 00:41:39,397

Yeah, yeah.

:

00:41:39,397 --> 00:41:40,297

To have some boundaries

:

00:41:40,297 --> 00:41:40,997

that you're not going to cross.

:

00:41:40,997 --> 00:41:41,497

And I just

:

00:41:41,497 --> 00:41:42,430

we have talked about this

:

00:41:42,430 --> 00:41:43,964

A on Instagram recently and whatever.

:

00:41:43,964 --> 00:41:44,764

Like there's

:

00:41:44,764 --> 00:41:46,297

got to have some kind of like, well,

:

00:41:46,297 --> 00:41:47,964

who do I want to be?

:

00:41:47,964 --> 00:41:49,264

Because they're describing

:

00:41:49,264 --> 00:41:50,197

is a Democratic man

:

00:41:50,197 --> 00:41:52,297

really has no center or identity,

:

00:41:53,830 --> 00:41:54,964

which is very,

:

00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:56,430

very much our society right now.

:

00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:57,530

You don't have any set of identity.

:

00:41:57,530 --> 00:42:01,697

So like whatever comes by is what you do

:

00:42:02,130 --> 00:42:03,397

and then that's not working.

:

00:42:03,397 --> 00:42:04,630

I'll just do this other thing

:

00:42:04,630 --> 00:42:05,564

and that's not working

:

00:42:05,564 --> 00:42:05,964

and you don't

:

00:42:05,964 --> 00:42:07,530

stick with anything for a long time.

:

00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:07,797

I mean,

:

00:42:07,797 --> 00:42:09,030

I've talked about with fitness

:

00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:10,230

to like there's

:

00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:11,564

so many people who are like,

:

00:42:11,564 --> 00:42:13,197

they'll try their new

:

00:42:13,197 --> 00:42:13,897

fit thing,

:

00:42:13,897 --> 00:42:15,297

like all the time, I'll do this

:

00:42:15,297 --> 00:42:16,830

and we'll do this and like,

:

00:42:16,830 --> 00:42:17,897

but nothing ever changes.

:

00:42:17,897 --> 00:42:19,497

They always look the same.

:

00:42:19,497 --> 00:42:21,997

And the reason why is because, well,

:

00:42:22,664 --> 00:42:25,497

bro, you didn't need like the 35 friends

:

00:42:25,497 --> 00:42:26,430

you just tried.

:

00:42:26,430 --> 00:42:27,730

You needed to do one thing

:

00:42:27,730 --> 00:42:29,730

consistently for like six months

:

00:42:29,730 --> 00:42:31,597

or eight months or a year,

:

00:42:31,597 --> 00:42:32,864

you know, like it's

:

00:42:32,864 --> 00:42:33,697

it's like a fat guy

:

00:42:33,697 --> 00:42:35,430

trying to lose weight,

:

00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:38,530

but trying a different diet every three.

:

00:42:38,530 --> 00:42:39,030

You know, he's

:

00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:40,830

not actually going to lose any weight.

:

00:42:40,830 --> 00:42:41,497

Yeah, like it.

:

00:42:41,497 --> 00:42:43,330

And that's the thing is that

:

00:42:44,564 --> 00:42:45,564

the I guess the

:

00:42:45,564 --> 00:42:46,230

the criticism

:

00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:47,397

I think of that Democratic band

:

00:42:47,397 --> 00:42:48,064

that you described,

:

00:42:48,064 --> 00:42:48,897

which they also kind

:

00:42:48,897 --> 00:42:49,930

of described as colorful,

:

00:42:49,930 --> 00:42:51,064

which I thought it was hilarious

:

00:42:51,064 --> 00:42:51,997

that like,

:

00:42:51,997 --> 00:42:52,797

are you describing,

:

00:42:52,797 --> 00:42:54,664

I don't know, a rainbow society.

:

00:42:54,664 --> 00:42:55,530

So

:

00:42:57,730 --> 00:42:59,330

it's a little too

:

00:42:59,330 --> 00:43:01,697

on the nose for being quite that old,

:

00:43:01,697 --> 00:43:03,030

You know, like,

:

00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:06,797

oh, you mean a rainbow society?

:

00:43:06,797 --> 00:43:07,930

Okay.

:

00:43:08,164 --> 00:43:09,097

You know, it's it's kind of

:

00:43:09,097 --> 00:43:10,230

I thought that was kind of funny.

:

00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:14,230

I and I would actually say in that vein,

:

00:43:15,330 --> 00:43:16,230

Book eight actually

:

00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:18,330

probably made me laugh.

:

00:43:18,564 --> 00:43:20,497

I won't say full out loud laughing

:

00:43:20,497 --> 00:43:23,197

like maybe Nietzsche does, but like

:

00:43:23,197 --> 00:43:24,464

enough of like

:

00:43:25,030 --> 00:43:26,930

a little chuckling.

:

00:43:26,930 --> 00:43:28,430

Like, okay, that's that's kind of funny.

:

00:43:28,430 --> 00:43:29,364

I see what you're doing there.

:

00:43:29,364 --> 00:43:30,164

That's that's

:

00:43:30,164 --> 00:43:31,564

probably more than any other chapter

:

00:43:31,564 --> 00:43:32,730

that we've read so far, aside

:

00:43:32,730 --> 00:43:34,364

from my all time favorite line,

:

00:43:34,364 --> 00:43:35,730

which is perhaps

:

00:43:35,730 --> 00:43:37,430

what refused to be persuaded

:

00:43:38,597 --> 00:43:39,530

with somebody who is in

:

00:43:39,530 --> 00:43:40,830

real life all the time.

:

00:43:40,830 --> 00:43:44,397

But the the sort of inside references

:

00:43:44,397 --> 00:43:48,264

and like very sly humor throughout Plato.

:

00:43:48,730 --> 00:43:50,897

Yes, it would be shocking

:

00:43:50,897 --> 00:43:53,330

if anyone picked up on it

:

00:43:53,330 --> 00:43:55,197

on their first time reading through,

:

00:43:55,197 --> 00:43:55,964

but it's one of the things that

:

00:43:55,964 --> 00:43:57,897

the more times you read through it,

:

00:43:57,897 --> 00:43:59,664

the more you get into begin to pick up.

:

00:43:59,664 --> 00:44:00,230

And like

:

00:44:00,230 --> 00:44:00,830

I was saying it

:

00:44:00,830 --> 00:44:02,230

like the first talk, it's like

:

00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:05,364

if you're not grasping the I'm

:

00:44:05,364 --> 00:44:06,930

believable humor,

:

00:44:06,930 --> 00:44:09,864

just like layered upon itself, it's

:

00:44:10,197 --> 00:44:12,364

it's almost a prank of a book

:

00:44:12,364 --> 00:44:13,064

in many ways.

:

00:44:13,064 --> 00:44:13,697

But it's

:

00:44:13,697 --> 00:44:14,130

but but

:

00:44:14,130 --> 00:44:15,597

it's dealing with a serious subject

:

00:44:15,597 --> 00:44:16,330

at the same time.

:

00:44:16,330 --> 00:44:18,197

But if you aren't seeing the humor

:

00:44:18,197 --> 00:44:19,430

and the cleverness

:

00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:22,130

and the the ironic self contradictions,

:

00:44:23,730 --> 00:44:24,130

you're not

:

00:44:24,130 --> 00:44:28,297

fully you're not yet fully grasping it.

:

00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:30,897

You might be missing it

:

00:44:30,897 --> 00:44:34,197

or you haven't read it enough

:

00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:36,163

because, yeah,

:

00:44:36,163 --> 00:44:38,563

you can digest it in one time through.

:

00:44:38,563 --> 00:44:39,697

No, I mean, it's certainly not.

:

00:44:39,697 --> 00:44:40,897

I just mean in terms of like

:

00:44:40,897 --> 00:44:43,097

if you can't see any humor in it, like,

:

00:44:43,097 --> 00:44:45,597

oh, and you're reading it as a handbook

:

00:44:45,597 --> 00:44:46,297

and I mean, the way

:

00:44:46,297 --> 00:44:47,597

that people actually read it was like,

:

00:44:47,597 --> 00:44:49,730

this is a handbook for fascism.

:

00:44:49,730 --> 00:44:51,630

And that's like,

:

00:44:51,630 --> 00:44:52,497

if you're reading like that,

:

00:44:52,497 --> 00:44:54,597

you might be me.

:

00:44:54,597 --> 00:44:55,530

Like that's

:

00:44:55,530 --> 00:44:56,497

yeah, that's not

:

00:44:56,497 --> 00:44:57,597

that's not

:

00:44:57,863 --> 00:45:00,263

the or maybe just autistic or something.

:

00:45:00,263 --> 00:45:01,063

Like you're not interested

:

00:45:01,063 --> 00:45:02,163

in these jokes.

:

00:45:02,163 --> 00:45:03,930

Like you're missing jokes.

:

00:45:03,930 --> 00:45:05,230

It's a weird thing

:

00:45:05,230 --> 00:45:05,963

and humor

:

00:45:05,963 --> 00:45:08,863

and just funny things about human nature

:

00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:09,930

that are throughout it.

:

00:45:09,930 --> 00:45:10,830

Yeah, Yeah.

:

00:45:10,830 --> 00:45:12,963

Including the return of female nature and

:

00:45:13,163 --> 00:45:14,097

in book.

:

00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:17,897

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

:

00:45:17,930 --> 00:45:20,130

But yeah, so the,

:

00:45:20,130 --> 00:45:24,030

the, the, the view of the, the,

:

00:45:24,397 --> 00:45:27,830

the forms as not as metaphysical truth,

:

00:45:28,130 --> 00:45:30,330

but as truth in value

:

00:45:30,330 --> 00:45:33,330

that is perceived by

:

00:45:33,330 --> 00:45:36,297

pursuit of discrete things

:

00:45:36,297 --> 00:45:38,197

which actually is pursued

:

00:45:38,197 --> 00:45:42,297

by essentially minding your own business

:

00:45:42,663 --> 00:45:43,363

and by

:

00:45:43,363 --> 00:45:44,530

doing your own job

:

00:45:44,530 --> 00:45:45,863

and maybe not being

:

00:45:45,863 --> 00:45:50,730

so concerned with the task of a city

:

00:45:50,730 --> 00:45:55,230

that is going to be corrupted anyways.

:

00:45:55,230 --> 00:45:58,363

It it, it opens a path

:

00:45:58,363 --> 00:46:00,563

to the experience

:

00:46:00,563 --> 00:46:02,463

of the good stuff in life.

:

00:46:02,463 --> 00:46:04,997

It reminds me of one of my favorite

:

00:46:04,997 --> 00:46:06,997

philosophical lines in the novel.

:

00:46:07,263 --> 00:46:09,663

There's I probably brought it up already,

:

00:46:09,663 --> 00:46:10,263

I don't remember.

:

00:46:10,263 --> 00:46:11,530

But there's this

:

00:46:11,530 --> 00:46:13,030

book by Robert Pearson called Zen

:

00:46:13,030 --> 00:46:14,397

and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,

:

00:46:14,397 --> 00:46:16,697

and he has this line where he says,

:

00:46:17,397 --> 00:46:19,397

some people want to fix the world

:

00:46:20,130 --> 00:46:20,930

through,

:

00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:21,663

you know,

:

00:46:21,663 --> 00:46:23,263

through policy and politics

:

00:46:23,263 --> 00:46:24,763

and cultural changes.

:

00:46:24,763 --> 00:46:26,130

They want to fix the world over

:

00:46:26,130 --> 00:46:27,530

and save the world.

:

00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:30,330

I just want to fix this motorcycle,

:

00:46:31,763 --> 00:46:33,863

you know, we'll see

:

00:46:33,863 --> 00:46:36,863

who does the world better

:

00:46:37,730 --> 00:46:38,563

between the people

:

00:46:38,563 --> 00:46:39,497

who want to fix the world

:

00:46:39,497 --> 00:46:39,930

and the people

:

00:46:39,930 --> 00:46:42,697

who want to fix the motorcycle.

:

00:46:42,697 --> 00:46:45,030

I think overall, on the whole,

:

00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:46,730

the people who fix the motorcycles

:

00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:47,763

make the world much better

:

00:46:47,763 --> 00:46:50,163

than the people who try to fix the world.

:

00:46:50,163 --> 00:46:52,297

And it feels like we're getting

:

00:46:54,063 --> 00:46:56,163

a taste of that here.

:

00:46:56,163 --> 00:46:56,630

Because

:

00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:58,863

because one of the one of the themes

:

00:46:59,963 --> 00:47:01,997

not not not so much

:

00:47:01,997 --> 00:47:02,730

in the republic,

:

00:47:02,730 --> 00:47:05,197

but in other conversations about politics

:

00:47:05,197 --> 00:47:09,563

and power is power is treated as this.

:

00:47:09,563 --> 00:47:10,097

Actually, no,

:

00:47:10,097 --> 00:47:12,663

it was brought up in book two.

:

00:47:13,297 --> 00:47:17,963

Power can be thought of as a kind of a

:

00:47:19,230 --> 00:47:21,497

an appetite that can never be filled

:

00:47:23,197 --> 00:47:25,397

and an almost sexual thing.

:

00:47:25,897 --> 00:47:28,197

This this kind of lust for power

:

00:47:29,063 --> 00:47:32,197

that is corrupting and which is

:

00:47:32,763 --> 00:47:34,330

The Lord of the Rings here as well.

:

00:47:35,730 --> 00:47:37,597

And this is this is sort of where

:

00:47:37,597 --> 00:47:38,463

where guys,

:

00:47:38,463 --> 00:47:39,530

one of the first things he does

:

00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:40,830

when he gets the ring

:

00:47:40,830 --> 00:47:42,730

that gives him power is

:

00:47:42,730 --> 00:47:43,863

he has sex with the queen

:

00:47:43,863 --> 00:47:45,630

and he can take whoever he wants.

:

00:47:45,630 --> 00:47:49,030

But it's a it's a sort of metaphorical

:

00:47:50,130 --> 00:47:52,263

distortion of perception of the good.

:

00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:54,563

And so basically,

:

00:47:54,563 --> 00:47:58,030

the whole point of Socrates argument is,

:

00:47:58,530 --> 00:48:01,363

how can you really be happy

:

00:48:01,730 --> 00:48:03,163

if you don't even understand

:

00:48:03,163 --> 00:48:05,397

what is good in the world

:

00:48:05,597 --> 00:48:08,763

right.

:

00:48:08,763 --> 00:48:11,263

A few thoughts that I had about

:

00:48:11,263 --> 00:48:12,663

like the philosopher king

:

00:48:12,663 --> 00:48:16,530

and that society, whatever, and

:

00:48:16,530 --> 00:48:18,930

it it struck me that they were,

:

00:48:20,030 --> 00:48:21,630

I thought the variation of it

:

00:48:21,630 --> 00:48:24,263

as as being a like

:

00:48:25,297 --> 00:48:26,730

they didn't have enough music

:

00:48:26,730 --> 00:48:28,830

and argument at the same time.

:

00:48:28,830 --> 00:48:29,763

I thought it was

:

00:48:29,763 --> 00:48:31,097

I thought that was clever.

:

00:48:31,097 --> 00:48:32,297

I like, what is that?

:

00:48:32,297 --> 00:48:32,997

Like we

:

00:48:32,997 --> 00:48:34,397

don't we really need to fix things

:

00:48:34,397 --> 00:48:36,730

music and argument at the same time.

:

00:48:36,730 --> 00:48:38,897

But gymnastics.

:

00:48:38,897 --> 00:48:41,330

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the

:

00:48:42,363 --> 00:48:43,063

it seems as

:

00:48:43,063 --> 00:48:45,130

though the problem with philosophers

:

00:48:46,263 --> 00:48:49,063

generally speaking is that

:

00:48:49,063 --> 00:48:53,297

they would be terribly indecisive rulers.

:

00:48:53,297 --> 00:48:54,030

I mean

:

00:48:54,197 --> 00:48:55,663

people who are philosophically inclined,

:

00:48:55,663 --> 00:48:57,163

I consider myself one of them,

:

00:48:57,163 --> 00:48:57,730

not in

:

00:48:57,730 --> 00:48:59,630

not the mathematical way that you are,

:

00:48:59,630 --> 00:49:02,430

but like in the some I don't know.

:

00:49:02,430 --> 00:49:03,830

There are many ends here.

:

00:49:03,830 --> 00:49:06,363

Like even a wizard can't see your hands.

:

00:49:06,363 --> 00:49:08,863

You're like, I like I'm very like him.

:

00:49:09,197 --> 00:49:11,163

There's there's a lot more going on here

:

00:49:11,163 --> 00:49:12,430

than just this simple thing.

:

00:49:12,430 --> 00:49:14,297

But sometimes the

:

00:49:14,297 --> 00:49:15,030

people who are really good

:

00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:15,997

at business are really good

:

00:49:15,997 --> 00:49:17,330

at just debating like we're going with.

:

00:49:17,330 --> 00:49:18,663

This is what we're doing, Let's go.

:

00:49:18,663 --> 00:49:19,230

Yeah,

:

00:49:19,563 --> 00:49:21,030

I think they move fast,

:

00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:22,397

you know, like that's that's

:

00:49:22,397 --> 00:49:23,063

people who are good at that.

:

00:49:23,063 --> 00:49:24,197

And so like,

:

00:49:24,197 --> 00:49:26,297

good rulers are like that too.

:

00:49:26,297 --> 00:49:26,763

Pertaining

:

00:49:26,763 --> 00:49:28,030

to conflicts

:

00:49:28,030 --> 00:49:28,830

from a couple of years

:

00:49:28,830 --> 00:49:32,730

ago, Douglas Murray was talking

:

00:49:32,730 --> 00:49:34,863

about the problem with combining

:

00:49:35,497 --> 00:49:37,997

governance with, for instance, science,

:

00:49:38,363 --> 00:49:40,597

which was once a subbranch of philosophy,

:

00:49:40,597 --> 00:49:42,930

is that science derives its legitimacy

:

00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:44,430

from an openness,

:

00:49:44,430 --> 00:49:46,563

a willingness to change its mind

:

00:49:46,563 --> 00:49:47,830

and to follow the evidence

:

00:49:47,830 --> 00:49:49,163

and to even say, Oh, that thing

:

00:49:49,163 --> 00:49:50,797

we thought yesterday, it's totally wrong.

:

00:49:50,797 --> 00:49:53,597

Turns out, and in decisiveness

:

00:49:54,163 --> 00:49:56,330

in a in a final sense

:

00:49:56,697 --> 00:49:57,197

is actually

:

00:49:57,197 --> 00:49:58,697

a source of its integrity

:

00:49:58,697 --> 00:50:00,496

to its own ideals.

:

00:50:00,496 --> 00:50:03,163

Whereas in governance you need finality

:

00:50:03,563 --> 00:50:05,330

or you can't have objectivity

:

00:50:05,330 --> 00:50:06,796

in arbitrating disputes.

:

00:50:06,796 --> 00:50:09,030

You have to have a single rule

:

00:50:09,363 --> 00:50:10,263

in order for there

:

00:50:10,263 --> 00:50:12,496

to be any stability in your society.

:

00:50:12,496 --> 00:50:14,630

And so if you combine science

:

00:50:14,963 --> 00:50:16,963

with the governance of the state,

:

00:50:17,796 --> 00:50:20,163

you kind of get the worst of both worlds.

:

00:50:20,163 --> 00:50:22,630

You get the indecision of science

:

00:50:23,330 --> 00:50:25,830

destroying the

:

00:50:25,830 --> 00:50:27,563

the sort of finality of governance

:

00:50:27,563 --> 00:50:29,596

that that's required for stability

:

00:50:29,596 --> 00:50:31,730

and for a feeling of justice

:

00:50:31,730 --> 00:50:35,130

in the society and the decisiveness

:

00:50:35,463 --> 00:50:36,996

of the governance,

:

00:50:36,996 --> 00:50:38,730

which we might have some experience with.

:

00:50:38,730 --> 00:50:43,430

Now forces a sort of obtuse

:

00:50:45,696 --> 00:50:46,430

what's

:

00:50:46,896 --> 00:50:49,496

what, like a close witness

:

00:50:49,496 --> 00:50:50,163

to new ideas

:

00:50:50,163 --> 00:50:51,496

within science which destroys

:

00:50:51,496 --> 00:50:53,363

legitimacy of science.

:

00:50:53,363 --> 00:50:54,930

Maybe they just don't play well together.

:

00:50:54,930 --> 00:50:56,230

And I think that's true

:

00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:58,230

with philosophy and politics.

:

00:50:58,230 --> 00:50:58,830

I don't

:

00:50:58,963 --> 00:51:00,563

see how you could

:

00:51:00,563 --> 00:51:03,063

call yourself a philosopher

:

00:51:03,063 --> 00:51:07,096

while making final pronouncements

:

00:51:07,096 --> 00:51:08,763

in that way,

:

00:51:09,496 --> 00:51:10,596

and vice versa.

:

00:51:10,596 --> 00:51:12,063

How are you going to be a governor

:

00:51:12,063 --> 00:51:13,296

of any society

:

00:51:13,296 --> 00:51:15,596

that's going to last and work

:

00:51:15,596 --> 00:51:17,230

if you're going to be always open

:

00:51:17,230 --> 00:51:18,030

to new ideas

:

00:51:18,030 --> 00:51:19,363

and entertaining new things

:

00:51:19,363 --> 00:51:21,496

and trying new things and stuff?

:

00:51:21,496 --> 00:51:23,496

Just Yeah, Yeah.

:

00:51:23,496 --> 00:51:26,463

Well, that's I think the criticism that

:

00:51:26,463 --> 00:51:28,696

book levels that Democracy

:

00:51:29,796 --> 00:51:32,763

and the Solid Society of Equality,

:

00:51:32,763 --> 00:51:35,430

the Rainbow Society use, that

:

00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:39,663

there's an inability to say no

:

00:51:40,530 --> 00:51:41,430

to anything.

:

00:51:41,430 --> 00:51:42,963

And that is one of the main criticisms

:

00:51:42,963 --> 00:51:44,263

that, like you know,

:

00:51:44,263 --> 00:51:47,163

the right or whatever has had about

:

00:51:47,696 --> 00:51:48,230

our society

:

00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:50,630

now it's like there's no ability to say

:

00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:51,196

too far.

:

00:51:52,263 --> 00:51:53,096

Like, I

:

00:51:53,096 --> 00:51:54,063

mean, we're seeing a

:

00:51:54,063 --> 00:51:56,163

little bit of it right now, finally.

:

00:51:56,163 --> 00:51:57,363

But there was a long time

:

00:51:57,363 --> 00:51:58,730

where people were going like, not

:

00:51:58,730 --> 00:51:59,930

there were no boundaries.

:

00:51:59,930 --> 00:52:02,296

There were like there was no too far.

:

00:52:02,296 --> 00:52:03,896

And people would just keep going.

:

00:52:03,896 --> 00:52:05,163

Okay, well, that's okay too.

:

00:52:05,163 --> 00:52:05,996

Well, that's okay too.

:

00:52:05,996 --> 00:52:07,863

Well, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah.

:

00:52:07,863 --> 00:52:09,163

And then they started messing

:

00:52:09,163 --> 00:52:09,696

with the kids.

:

00:52:09,696 --> 00:52:10,263

And I think that

:

00:52:10,263 --> 00:52:11,630

people got a little bit weird,

:

00:52:11,630 --> 00:52:13,463

like, okay, well, hold on.

:

00:52:13,463 --> 00:52:14,430

That's too far.

:

00:52:14,430 --> 00:52:15,763

But for everything else,

:

00:52:15,763 --> 00:52:17,163

people were like, Well, no,

:

00:52:17,163 --> 00:52:19,463

they couldn't really say

:

00:52:19,463 --> 00:52:20,896

that nothing was too far.

:

00:52:20,896 --> 00:52:22,630

And so if you don't have those boundaries

:

00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:24,963

where you at some point you say no.

:

00:52:24,963 --> 00:52:27,163

And I think that you can

:

00:52:27,163 --> 00:52:29,196

have a fairly liberal mindset

:

00:52:29,196 --> 00:52:30,263

within your society.

:

00:52:30,263 --> 00:52:31,563

You're not liberal in the dumb

:

00:52:31,563 --> 00:52:32,630

fucking CNN way,

:

00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:33,563

but like

:

00:52:33,563 --> 00:52:34,663

liberal in the general,

:

00:52:34,663 --> 00:52:37,463

like more philosophical way of like this.

:

00:52:37,496 --> 00:52:38,963

Not all these things are necessarily

:

00:52:38,963 --> 00:52:41,396

hard stops, you know, like that.

:

00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:42,396

That's like I say,

:

00:52:42,396 --> 00:52:44,563

best practices over like hard rules.

:

00:52:44,563 --> 00:52:46,730

But you have to have some hard rules,

:

00:52:47,130 --> 00:52:48,663

like you have to have some like

:

00:52:48,663 --> 00:52:50,330

because otherwise

:

00:52:50,330 --> 00:52:51,596

in the way that like,

:

00:52:51,596 --> 00:52:53,730

like the first men like we

:

00:52:53,730 --> 00:52:55,130

we don't have Christians in the first men

:

00:52:55,130 --> 00:52:56,430

or any or Muslims

:

00:52:56,430 --> 00:52:57,863

or any other people because

:

00:52:58,930 --> 00:53:00,996

it would make it something else,

:

00:53:00,996 --> 00:53:02,496

you know, like you have to have

:

00:53:02,496 --> 00:53:03,763

if something is everything,

:

00:53:03,763 --> 00:53:04,630

then it's nothing.

:

00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:05,696

It has no definitions.

:

00:53:05,696 --> 00:53:06,963

And and that's

:

00:53:06,963 --> 00:53:08,096

you need that for a society.

:

00:53:08,096 --> 00:53:10,496

You need that as a man too.

:

00:53:10,496 --> 00:53:11,796

You have to have some like,

:

00:53:11,796 --> 00:53:12,796

what are you about?

:

00:53:12,796 --> 00:53:13,796

What are your boundaries?

:

00:53:13,796 --> 00:53:15,296

If there are none,

:

00:53:15,296 --> 00:53:16,463

you're not about anything

:

00:53:16,463 --> 00:53:18,463

and you're like a democratic man.

:

00:53:18,463 --> 00:53:19,596

You basically like your

:

00:53:19,596 --> 00:53:22,163

whatever comes along is I'm going to do,

:

00:53:22,363 --> 00:53:23,596

you know. And yeah.

:

00:53:23,596 --> 00:53:24,963

And that's no,

:

00:53:24,963 --> 00:53:26,896

no way to really be I don't know.

:

00:53:26,896 --> 00:53:27,196

I don't know

:

00:53:27,196 --> 00:53:30,263

how that influences happiness.

:

00:53:30,263 --> 00:53:32,463

Happiness is this weird thing

:

00:53:32,463 --> 00:53:34,096

or, you know, like satisfaction

:

00:53:34,096 --> 00:53:35,730

in life or whatever.

:

00:53:35,730 --> 00:53:38,796

But I mean, I think that,

:

00:53:38,796 --> 00:53:39,930

like, I made a real about this,

:

00:53:39,930 --> 00:53:41,630

which is to sentimentalism, I to post it.

:

00:53:41,630 --> 00:53:43,330

But I like

:

00:53:43,330 --> 00:53:45,663

I've always like senator a song my way

:

00:53:46,796 --> 00:53:47,596

because you have this guy who

:

00:53:47,596 --> 00:53:49,263

gets to his end of his life

:

00:53:49,263 --> 00:53:50,830

and he's looking back

:

00:53:50,830 --> 00:53:51,663

and he's like, well,

:

00:53:51,663 --> 00:53:53,730

you know, I did the best that I could

:

00:53:53,730 --> 00:53:56,163

and I did the best that I could,

:

00:53:56,663 --> 00:53:57,263

and I did it

:

00:53:57,263 --> 00:53:58,263

the way that I wanted to do it.

:

00:53:58,263 --> 00:53:59,196

And it didn't always work out

:

00:53:59,196 --> 00:54:00,063

the way I wanted to.

:

00:54:00,063 --> 00:54:01,396

But like I did

:

00:54:01,396 --> 00:54:02,696

what I wanted to do,

:

00:54:02,696 --> 00:54:03,030

the way

:

00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:03,963

that I wanted to do it

:

00:54:03,963 --> 00:54:06,296

to the best of my ability at that time.

:

00:54:06,296 --> 00:54:06,663

Yeah.

:

00:54:06,663 --> 00:54:08,930

And I don't think there's

:

00:54:08,930 --> 00:54:09,530

anything better

:

00:54:09,530 --> 00:54:11,496

that you can say about your life.

:

00:54:11,496 --> 00:54:12,463

Like really,

:

00:54:12,463 --> 00:54:13,663

by the time you get to the afterlife,

:

00:54:13,663 --> 00:54:15,063

you're like, Well,

:

00:54:15,063 --> 00:54:15,430

you know,

:

00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:16,630

not everything went quite

:

00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:18,063

the way I planned,

:

00:54:18,063 --> 00:54:20,163

but like, I said,

:

00:54:20,163 --> 00:54:20,963

I tried really hard

:

00:54:20,963 --> 00:54:21,830

and I did the best I could do.

:

00:54:21,830 --> 00:54:22,563

And I like

:

00:54:22,563 --> 00:54:23,430

I made

:

00:54:23,496 --> 00:54:24,763

choices that I'm comfortable

:

00:54:24,763 --> 00:54:26,763

with most of the time,

:

00:54:26,763 --> 00:54:27,763

you know, like, yeah,

:

00:54:27,763 --> 00:54:29,130

that's that's what you want to

:

00:54:29,130 --> 00:54:30,363

that's what you want to be able to say.

:

00:54:31,363 --> 00:54:34,096

Well, I think there's a way

:

00:54:34,096 --> 00:54:37,196

that Socrates or Plato, rather, is,

:

00:54:37,196 --> 00:54:40,496

is actually essentially arguing for that.

:

00:54:40,963 --> 00:54:43,663

The royalist, the king, the philosopher

:

00:54:43,663 --> 00:54:46,263

king is the decision maker

:

00:54:46,863 --> 00:54:49,196

who is autonomous over himself

:

00:54:49,196 --> 00:54:51,996

and every stage down is a

:

00:54:52,263 --> 00:54:56,130

is another layer of slavery to something

:

00:54:56,296 --> 00:54:57,630

that is other than what

:

00:54:57,630 --> 00:54:59,696

you necessarily believe is best.

:

00:55:00,263 --> 00:55:04,463

So, Tim, the typical man is by degree

:

00:55:05,296 --> 00:55:09,030

slightly bound to conventional notions

:

00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:11,130

of honor in his society.

:

00:55:11,130 --> 00:55:13,630

And maybe the philosophical

:

00:55:13,630 --> 00:55:16,130

man will choose for some form of honor,

:

00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:19,296

but that might run afoul of some

:

00:55:19,296 --> 00:55:22,130

other people's notion of honor,

:

00:55:22,330 --> 00:55:23,363

you know, So.

:

00:55:23,363 --> 00:55:24,963

So but then

:

00:55:24,963 --> 00:55:27,430

there's still something honorable there,

:

00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:28,263

literally.

:

00:55:28,263 --> 00:55:29,396

But below that,

:

00:55:29,396 --> 00:55:32,363

there's there's money and necessity and

:

00:55:32,596 --> 00:55:35,029

and money beyond

:

00:55:35,529 --> 00:55:37,563

necessity and the law of necessity

:

00:55:37,563 --> 00:55:39,229

that we keep hearing

:

00:55:40,263 --> 00:55:41,429

brought up

:

00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:42,529

all the way back

:

00:55:42,529 --> 00:55:44,529

to the society of necessity,

:

00:55:44,529 --> 00:55:46,563

the book, to the first city,

:

00:55:46,563 --> 00:55:47,496

and then below

:

00:55:47,496 --> 00:55:48,529

that is the

:

00:55:48,529 --> 00:55:50,063

opinion of the public,

:

00:55:50,063 --> 00:55:52,529

which is sort of the democratic world.

:

00:55:52,529 --> 00:55:54,696

And then finally, the tyrant

:

00:55:55,696 --> 00:55:56,763

is essentially a hunter.

:

00:55:56,763 --> 00:55:59,129

Biden just completely enslaved

:

00:55:59,496 --> 00:56:01,963

to his his own whims.

:

00:56:02,263 --> 00:56:05,029

And if you've ever met someone

:

00:56:05,029 --> 00:56:07,163

who is a serious addict, like

:

00:56:08,163 --> 00:56:10,396

they do what they

:

00:56:10,396 --> 00:56:14,429

what they want in the in the pale,

:

00:56:14,429 --> 00:56:17,429

a ghostly sense of want,

:

00:56:17,429 --> 00:56:19,429

like someone who is picking up,

:

00:56:19,429 --> 00:56:20,996

who is who is selling,

:

00:56:20,996 --> 00:56:23,729

who's like stealing catalytic converter

:

00:56:23,729 --> 00:56:24,963

so that they can buy more

:

00:56:24,963 --> 00:56:26,463

black tar heroin.

:

00:56:26,463 --> 00:56:27,063

We asked them,

:

00:56:27,063 --> 00:56:28,996

Are you living the life you want to live?

:

00:56:28,996 --> 00:56:31,463

They're not going to say yes.

:

00:56:31,463 --> 00:56:33,529

You know, they're doing

:

00:56:33,929 --> 00:56:34,963

what their body

:

00:56:34,963 --> 00:56:37,429

is essentially forcing them to do.

:

00:56:37,429 --> 00:56:38,763

Yes, compulsion

:

00:56:38,763 --> 00:56:39,896

is the best way to describe it.

:

00:56:39,896 --> 00:56:41,163

Yeah. Yeah.

:

00:56:41,163 --> 00:56:42,696

And I think I think

:

00:56:42,696 --> 00:56:45,296

what the psychology of the tyrant is

:

00:56:45,296 --> 00:56:47,629

describing is this is is the

:

00:56:48,329 --> 00:56:49,529

is the man

:

00:56:49,529 --> 00:56:51,129

who is completely controlled

:

00:56:51,129 --> 00:56:53,396

by his impulses in that way.

:

00:56:54,696 --> 00:56:56,529

And so what you get

:

00:56:56,529 --> 00:57:00,329

in the man who is like the just society

:

00:57:00,963 --> 00:57:04,029

is a man who is in harmony with himself

:

00:57:04,529 --> 00:57:06,529

and who is there is this debate.

:

00:57:06,529 --> 00:57:07,896

I was going back over

:

00:57:07,896 --> 00:57:09,863

listening to Dan Dennett

:

00:57:09,863 --> 00:57:12,063

defending his concept of free will,

:

00:57:12,063 --> 00:57:12,963

and he says

:

00:57:12,963 --> 00:57:14,929

the libertarian notion of free will,

:

00:57:14,929 --> 00:57:16,029

which is the ability to do

:

00:57:16,029 --> 00:57:18,996

otherwise, was always an illusion.

:

00:57:18,996 --> 00:57:20,863

That was never the point.

:

00:57:20,863 --> 00:57:22,596

The point of free will was

:

00:57:22,596 --> 00:57:24,496

its responsibility,

:

00:57:24,496 --> 00:57:25,796

and it's an accomplishment.

:

00:57:25,796 --> 00:57:27,529

It's something we achieve.

:

00:57:27,529 --> 00:57:30,063

And when we say,

:

00:57:30,063 --> 00:57:31,196

Oh, this person

:

00:57:31,196 --> 00:57:32,263

signed this document

:

00:57:32,263 --> 00:57:33,263

of their own free will

:

00:57:33,263 --> 00:57:34,629

and are therefore responsible

:

00:57:34,629 --> 00:57:36,063

for things, the fact

:

00:57:36,063 --> 00:57:37,696

that they might have been predetermined

:

00:57:37,696 --> 00:57:38,329

to do that

:

00:57:38,329 --> 00:57:39,796

through a mechanistic universe

:

00:57:39,796 --> 00:57:41,429

is completely irrelevant

:

00:57:41,429 --> 00:57:43,463

because they've achieved a certain degree

:

00:57:43,463 --> 00:57:46,463

of agency and autonomy in their own lives

:

00:57:47,863 --> 00:57:49,696

that their decision

:

00:57:49,696 --> 00:57:51,496

is meaningfully theirs.

:

00:57:51,496 --> 00:57:52,963

And I think that seems to be

:

00:57:52,963 --> 00:57:54,596

what Socrates is arguing for,

:

00:57:54,596 --> 00:57:58,496

is this this ability to own your own life

:

00:57:58,496 --> 00:58:00,063

and your own decisions

:

00:58:00,063 --> 00:58:01,129

through achieving

:

00:58:01,129 --> 00:58:02,529

a sort of harmony with the body.

:

00:58:02,529 --> 00:58:03,329

And so

:

00:58:04,296 --> 00:58:06,196

Matt Seneca says,

:

00:58:06,196 --> 00:58:07,563

looking like neither the just man

:

00:58:07,563 --> 00:58:09,296

nor the tyrant are happy.

:

00:58:09,296 --> 00:58:09,996

Maybe the point is

:

00:58:09,996 --> 00:58:10,963

that we are not capable

:

00:58:10,963 --> 00:58:11,929

of blasting happiness

:

00:58:11,929 --> 00:58:13,396

and there are better pursuits.

:

00:58:13,396 --> 00:58:14,796

Well, maybe

:

00:58:14,796 --> 00:58:16,863

lasting happiness is not possible,

:

00:58:17,329 --> 00:58:19,629

but I do think Plato is saying

:

00:58:19,629 --> 00:58:20,429

no, really.

:

00:58:20,429 --> 00:58:22,663

The guy who achieves

:

00:58:23,463 --> 00:58:26,563

agency through philosophy and discarding

:

00:58:26,863 --> 00:58:28,396

the images of value

:

00:58:28,396 --> 00:58:30,096

proffered by these different forces

:

00:58:30,096 --> 00:58:32,396

in society in pursuit of the real thing

:

00:58:33,029 --> 00:58:35,596

actually is happier.

:

00:58:35,863 --> 00:58:38,563

You know, the day

:

00:58:38,563 --> 00:58:40,463

he made it, refuted it

:

00:58:40,629 --> 00:58:41,829

right after,

:

00:58:41,829 --> 00:58:44,163

but he did this thing,

:

00:58:44,163 --> 00:58:45,196

I think it was in chapter eight,

:

00:58:45,196 --> 00:58:47,063

it might have been chapter nine, but

:

00:58:48,296 --> 00:58:50,363

I've caught this over the years.

:

00:58:50,363 --> 00:58:51,829

Dudes do this all the time.

:

00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:53,563

It's rare that they don't

:

00:58:53,563 --> 00:58:55,796

and that magically

:

00:58:58,129 --> 00:58:58,763

he said it.

:

00:58:58,763 --> 00:58:59,929

Like, wouldn't you say that

:

00:58:59,929 --> 00:59:00,763

a warrior thinks

:

00:59:00,763 --> 00:59:02,663

the best thing to be is a warrior?

:

00:59:02,663 --> 00:59:04,963

And basically he goes on my thing

:

00:59:05,163 --> 00:59:07,429

and I'm like, Man, I have observed that.

:

00:59:07,429 --> 00:59:08,163

So many times.

:

00:59:08,163 --> 00:59:08,929

That's one of my like

:

00:59:08,929 --> 00:59:10,396

iron rules of masculinity

:

00:59:10,396 --> 00:59:12,796

is that 99% of time

:

00:59:12,796 --> 00:59:14,629

an account will make you

:

00:59:14,629 --> 00:59:15,829

make an explanation of why

:

00:59:15,829 --> 00:59:17,029

it's the most masculine thing

:

00:59:17,029 --> 00:59:17,863

you could do.

:

00:59:17,863 --> 00:59:18,463

Like it

:

00:59:18,463 --> 00:59:20,296

like every man down

:

00:59:20,296 --> 00:59:22,496

the line will say, Well, actually

:

00:59:22,496 --> 00:59:23,263

I do construction

:

00:59:23,263 --> 00:59:24,396

and we build things, and building

:

00:59:24,396 --> 00:59:26,163

things is more important than that.

:

00:59:26,163 --> 00:59:27,896

And they were true.

:

00:59:27,896 --> 00:59:32,596

My people, when he said,

:

00:59:33,163 --> 00:59:34,263

he says with no bias

:

00:59:35,763 --> 00:59:37,496

and no

:

00:59:37,496 --> 00:59:40,229

here from a place of pure reason.

:

00:59:40,229 --> 00:59:43,629

But but you know I mean and really what

:

00:59:44,529 --> 00:59:45,129

you know,

:

00:59:45,163 --> 00:59:46,463

what he's doing

:

00:59:46,463 --> 00:59:47,929

as a philosopher is saying

:

00:59:47,929 --> 00:59:50,696

that being lost is the best thing to be,

:

00:59:51,129 --> 00:59:51,663

you know?

:

00:59:51,663 --> 00:59:52,563

And so it's just

:

00:59:52,563 --> 00:59:53,896

really the same

:

00:59:53,896 --> 00:59:55,196

personal bias towards

:

00:59:55,196 --> 00:59:56,696

the things that I like

:

00:59:56,696 --> 00:59:58,096

and care about the most

:

00:59:58,096 --> 01:00:00,296

that are really like really

:

01:00:00,496 --> 01:00:02,663

I mean, it's almost like I can be kind of

:

01:00:04,229 --> 01:00:06,096

sly with it or whatever, like

:

01:00:06,096 --> 01:00:07,896

being crass.

:

01:00:07,896 --> 01:00:08,929

Oh, really?

:

01:00:08,929 --> 01:00:10,029

A philosopher said

:

01:00:10,029 --> 01:00:11,163

that the best way of life

:

01:00:11,163 --> 01:00:12,829

is to be a philosopher.

:

01:00:12,829 --> 01:00:13,863

Tell me more.

:

01:00:13,863 --> 01:00:16,063

You know, it's shocking.

:

01:00:16,396 --> 01:00:16,963

You know, like,

:

01:00:16,963 --> 01:00:18,196

I mean, it's

:

01:00:18,196 --> 01:00:20,429

it's such a convention of humans

:

01:00:20,429 --> 01:00:21,663

in the way that they think

:

01:00:21,663 --> 01:00:23,329

not everyone is like that.

:

01:00:23,329 --> 01:00:24,429

But and there are

:

01:00:24,429 --> 01:00:25,629

there are dudes who are like,

:

01:00:25,629 --> 01:00:25,929

yeah,

:

01:00:25,929 --> 01:00:27,129

I don't know how to do anything better.

:

01:00:27,129 --> 01:00:27,896

I would do something better

:

01:00:27,896 --> 01:00:28,763

if I could figure it out.

:

01:00:28,763 --> 01:00:30,663

But like, they're dudes who are totally,

:

01:00:30,663 --> 01:00:31,263

totally honest

:

01:00:31,263 --> 01:00:32,429

and self-aware like that,

:

01:00:32,429 --> 01:00:33,329

but there are a lot of guys

:

01:00:33,329 --> 01:00:35,096

that will just flatter themselves

:

01:00:35,096 --> 01:00:37,163

and make this like, world of like no B

:

01:00:37,363 --> 01:00:38,496

being exactly what I am

:

01:00:38,496 --> 01:00:40,129

is the best thing to be.

:

01:00:40,129 --> 01:00:43,396

And so it's yeah, like I said,

:

01:00:43,563 --> 01:00:46,196

he was explaining that they do that

:

01:00:46,329 --> 01:00:47,963

but also kind of doing it

:

01:00:47,963 --> 01:00:49,196

at the same time,

:

01:00:49,196 --> 01:00:49,729

you know I mean

:

01:00:49,729 --> 01:00:50,263

the whole thing

:

01:00:50,263 --> 01:00:52,529

is really a self-exploration

:

01:00:52,529 --> 01:00:54,063

like this is why being a philosopher

:

01:00:54,063 --> 01:00:55,863

is better than the other things.

:

01:00:55,863 --> 01:00:57,163

There's there's two things

:

01:00:57,163 --> 01:00:58,563

I want to say to that.

:

01:00:58,563 --> 01:00:59,729

First of all,

:

01:00:59,729 --> 01:01:02,663

there's this there's all kinds of careers

:

01:01:03,029 --> 01:01:05,796

you can find where people went

:

01:01:05,796 --> 01:01:08,329

into it, not understanding the career,

:

01:01:08,996 --> 01:01:09,729

and then they became

:

01:01:09,729 --> 01:01:10,862

disillusioned with it, like,

:

01:01:10,862 --> 01:01:12,962

Oh, this is not what I thought it was.

:

01:01:12,962 --> 01:01:13,162

Right.

:

01:01:13,162 --> 01:01:15,329

And one of the fields

:

01:01:15,329 --> 01:01:17,696

where that happens sometimes

:

01:01:17,696 --> 01:01:19,229

is philosophy.

:

01:01:19,229 --> 01:01:20,996

There are people who go into philosophy

:

01:01:20,996 --> 01:01:22,196

and then become disillusioned

:

01:01:22,196 --> 01:01:25,562

that this is just like head in the clouds

:

01:01:25,962 --> 01:01:26,762

Nonsense.

:

01:01:26,762 --> 01:01:27,629

I'd be better off

:

01:01:27,629 --> 01:01:30,196

being like an auto mechanic or something,

:

01:01:30,196 --> 01:01:31,429

right? However,

:

01:01:32,862 --> 01:01:34,262

there was a

:

01:01:34,262 --> 01:01:34,962

there's a funny back

:

01:01:34,962 --> 01:01:36,062

and forth between two guys.

:

01:01:36,062 --> 01:01:36,829

I used to listen to all.

:

01:01:36,829 --> 01:01:38,362

I should listen to them more.

:

01:01:38,362 --> 01:01:40,629

David Pizarro and Chandler Summers

:

01:01:40,629 --> 01:01:41,762

talking about

:

01:01:41,762 --> 01:01:43,362

variously deconstructing their own

:

01:01:43,362 --> 01:01:45,396

fields of psychology and philosophy,

:

01:01:45,396 --> 01:01:46,796

going over all the bad papers,

:

01:01:46,796 --> 01:01:48,129

the reproducibility crisis

:

01:01:48,129 --> 01:01:50,362

and psychology in particular.

:

01:01:50,362 --> 01:01:51,629

And David Pizarro,

:

01:01:51,629 --> 01:01:53,162

the psychologist, was complaining

:

01:01:53,162 --> 01:01:54,796

and he said, Man

:

01:01:54,796 --> 01:01:57,096

When you deconstruct psychology

:

01:01:57,096 --> 01:01:59,529

and you find it, it's a bunch of bullshit

:

01:01:59,529 --> 01:02:00,662

and you're a psychologist,

:

01:02:00,662 --> 01:02:02,129

you have nothing left.

:

01:02:02,129 --> 01:02:03,896

But if you deconstruct philosophy

:

01:02:03,896 --> 01:02:05,529

and say it's a bunch of bullshit,

:

01:02:05,529 --> 01:02:08,429

you're still doing philosophy.

:

01:02:08,429 --> 01:02:10,596

Which was there was something that said,

:

01:02:11,162 --> 01:02:12,162

Time to join the party.

:

01:02:12,162 --> 01:02:12,696

Man.

:

01:02:13,162 --> 01:02:14,562

Yeah.

:

01:02:14,562 --> 01:02:15,196

So

:

01:02:17,796 --> 01:02:19,396

that's that is true.

:

01:02:19,396 --> 01:02:21,462

I mean, you never run out of air.

:

01:02:21,496 --> 01:02:23,729

You just, you just create a new problem.

:

01:02:23,729 --> 01:02:25,262

Free dissolving philosophy.

:

01:02:25,262 --> 01:02:27,496

Well, I mean, I think

:

01:02:28,562 --> 01:02:30,329

the maybe the, the

:

01:02:30,329 --> 01:02:32,162

short quick answer is

:

01:02:32,162 --> 01:02:34,429

maybe so long as you're,

:

01:02:34,429 --> 01:02:36,462

you know, being mindful of

:

01:02:37,062 --> 01:02:39,062

what is actually valuable in life

:

01:02:39,562 --> 01:02:40,629

right now,

:

01:02:41,462 --> 01:02:42,962

whether that is becoming

:

01:02:42,962 --> 01:02:45,162

an academic philosopher

:

01:02:45,162 --> 01:02:48,562

or maybe it's just being an auto mechanic

:

01:02:48,562 --> 01:02:52,062

or just being an auto mechanic, as if,

:

01:02:52,429 --> 01:02:52,696

you know,

:

01:02:52,696 --> 01:02:53,496

we're we're

:

01:02:53,496 --> 01:02:56,562

presuming that's inferior somehow.

:

01:02:56,562 --> 01:02:58,662

You know, if you're asking the question

:

01:02:59,696 --> 01:03:02,896

and you're pursuing value in the world

:

01:03:03,496 --> 01:03:05,696

in a in a more

:

01:03:05,696 --> 01:03:08,162

conscious and thoughtful manner,

:

01:03:08,162 --> 01:03:10,596

you're less likely to be

:

01:03:10,596 --> 01:03:13,662

led astray, perhaps by images.

:

01:03:13,862 --> 01:03:15,962

Whether those are marketers

:

01:03:16,129 --> 01:03:18,062

or your own impulses.

:

01:03:18,062 --> 01:03:19,862

And you can achieve a higher degree

:

01:03:19,862 --> 01:03:22,329

of agency and higher degree of freedom

:

01:03:22,629 --> 01:03:24,062

and perhaps a higher

:

01:03:24,062 --> 01:03:26,129

degree of satisfaction with your life

:

01:03:26,129 --> 01:03:30,362

at the end of things, and avoid the fates

:

01:03:30,362 --> 01:03:33,662

of selfless friends who reached old age

:

01:03:33,662 --> 01:03:38,462

and more like, Oh, this is miserable.

:

01:03:38,462 --> 01:03:39,729

Which is perhaps what

:

01:03:39,729 --> 01:03:43,896

this was all about to begin with.

:

01:03:43,896 --> 01:03:45,962

Yeah, yeah.

:

01:03:45,962 --> 01:03:48,062

But and, and there's also

:

01:03:48,062 --> 01:03:49,496

you can go in a rabbit holes of like,

:

01:03:49,496 --> 01:03:51,196

what is happiness and fulfillment?

:

01:03:51,196 --> 01:03:52,429

What's the difference?

:

01:03:52,429 --> 01:03:53,462

Short and,

:

01:03:53,462 --> 01:03:54,662

and that's going to be different

:

01:03:54,662 --> 01:03:56,029

for a lot of different people.

:

01:03:56,029 --> 01:03:56,962

People want different things.

:

01:03:56,962 --> 01:03:57,929

I've met people

:

01:03:57,929 --> 01:03:59,796

as I said, one of my favorite things,

:

01:04:01,496 --> 01:04:02,029

talking to

:

01:04:02,029 --> 01:04:02,862

Greg Hamilton back

:

01:04:02,862 --> 01:04:03,762

in the day

:

01:04:03,762 --> 01:04:05,762

and run out when we would run all these

:

01:04:06,862 --> 01:04:09,396

World War Two reenactment things

:

01:04:09,396 --> 01:04:11,062

and he was just always amazed that

:

01:04:11,062 --> 01:04:13,396

someone wanted to be the cook.

:

01:04:13,396 --> 01:04:14,862

He just he just assumed.

:

01:04:14,862 --> 01:04:15,596

He just assumed

:

01:04:15,596 --> 01:04:16,796

because he was a Special Forces guy.

:

01:04:16,796 --> 01:04:17,996

He just assumed that everyone

:

01:04:17,996 --> 01:04:18,729

wants to be like

:

01:04:18,729 --> 01:04:20,229

the Special Forces guy

:

01:04:20,229 --> 01:04:22,862

in the reenactment, at least, Right?

:

01:04:22,862 --> 01:04:24,896

You don't have to do the process.

:

01:04:24,896 --> 01:04:25,796

You just get to play.

:

01:04:25,796 --> 01:04:27,062

This person is like,

:

01:04:27,062 --> 01:04:28,062

No, some guy actually

:

01:04:28,062 --> 01:04:29,462

just wants to be the cook.

:

01:04:29,462 --> 01:04:30,796

And that like, blew him away.

:

01:04:30,796 --> 01:04:31,596

He couldn't figure.

:

01:04:31,596 --> 01:04:34,829

It was like a mind for him that like,

:

01:04:34,829 --> 01:04:35,496

someone would want that.

:

01:04:35,496 --> 01:04:37,329

But that's true in your life.

:

01:04:37,329 --> 01:04:38,762

Not every is.

:

01:04:38,762 --> 01:04:40,262

People like doing different things.

:

01:04:40,262 --> 01:04:41,796

They get fulfillment and enjoyment

:

01:04:41,796 --> 01:04:42,829

out of doing different things.

:

01:04:42,829 --> 01:04:43,929

And that's that.

:

01:04:43,929 --> 01:04:45,262

The idea that yeah, like there's

:

01:04:45,262 --> 01:04:46,996

this hierarchy of things

:

01:04:46,996 --> 01:04:49,162

that are worthwhile

:

01:04:49,162 --> 01:04:50,096

or fulfilling

:

01:04:50,096 --> 01:04:52,129

is maybe a little bit of an illusion too.

:

01:04:52,129 --> 01:04:54,196

But do we have any more comments?

:

01:04:54,196 --> 01:04:57,262

No, that's, that's it for you.

:

01:04:57,429 --> 01:04:59,562

Weird because we have a lot of viewers

:

01:04:59,662 --> 01:05:01,696

actually for this actual episode.

:

01:05:01,696 --> 01:05:03,362

There's a lot of people watching.

:

01:05:03,362 --> 01:05:04,929

So yeah, if you have any comments

:

01:05:04,929 --> 01:05:06,562

or questions, jump in

:

01:05:06,562 --> 01:05:08,729

because yeah, it's a

:

01:05:09,796 --> 01:05:10,896

like I said, this one is B,

:

01:05:10,896 --> 01:05:12,696

it'd be good to go back over.

:

01:05:12,696 --> 01:05:15,396

I may go back over it at some point, just

:

01:05:17,662 --> 01:05:20,162

in some other ideas that I'm looking for

:

01:05:20,162 --> 01:05:21,996

like a in terms of like

:

01:05:21,996 --> 01:05:23,762

I'm toying with the idea

:

01:05:23,762 --> 01:05:25,462

by writing a book about virtue.

:

01:05:25,462 --> 01:05:27,496

I mean, I'm just kicking it around

:

01:05:27,496 --> 01:05:28,329

in my head.

:

01:05:28,329 --> 01:05:28,962

Actually.

:

01:05:28,962 --> 01:05:29,329

The other thing

:

01:05:29,329 --> 01:05:30,196

is, Chris, you were busy

:

01:05:30,196 --> 01:05:31,429

all week with work,

:

01:05:31,429 --> 01:05:33,796

but the first mean, we're talking about

:

01:05:34,496 --> 01:05:36,629

free will and fate like four days.

:

01:05:37,962 --> 01:05:39,662

We had a really good discussion

:

01:05:39,662 --> 01:05:41,062

going about the whole thing.

:

01:05:41,062 --> 01:05:41,396

I mean,

:

01:05:41,396 --> 01:05:42,096

you could probably scroll

:

01:05:42,096 --> 01:05:42,662

through some of it

:

01:05:42,662 --> 01:05:44,029

because it's like dare for ten days,

:

01:05:44,029 --> 01:05:44,396

I think.

:

01:05:44,396 --> 01:05:45,462

But like

:

01:05:45,829 --> 01:05:47,962

everybody was getting really into it,

:

01:05:47,962 --> 01:05:48,729

going back and forth

:

01:05:48,729 --> 01:05:49,996

and talking about

:

01:05:49,996 --> 01:05:51,596

the concept of free will and free

:

01:05:51,596 --> 01:05:52,329

and all that stuff.

:

01:05:52,329 --> 01:05:53,296

And so

:

01:05:53,462 --> 01:05:55,462

it became it was

:

01:05:55,462 --> 01:05:57,062

it was a pretty good discussion.

:

01:05:57,062 --> 01:05:59,529

So it's been kind of a theme all week

:

01:05:59,529 --> 01:06:00,029

except for

:

01:06:00,029 --> 01:06:02,262

I ruined it with a meme today, but

:

01:06:03,429 --> 01:06:04,129

pretty good.

:

01:06:04,129 --> 01:06:05,162

It's been in pretty good discussion.

:

01:06:05,162 --> 01:06:07,462

And also I have to say

:

01:06:07,462 --> 01:06:10,096

this looks pretty good on film.

:

01:06:10,096 --> 01:06:12,096

Like, like after this,

:

01:06:12,929 --> 01:06:14,696

we'll get these soon.

:

01:06:14,696 --> 01:06:15,529

Obviously it's mirrored

:

01:06:15,529 --> 01:06:18,162

because I guess I mirrored my screen, but

:

01:06:18,162 --> 01:06:20,729

I got some stay similar hats coming

:

01:06:20,729 --> 01:06:22,562

that I'm having manufactured

:

01:06:22,562 --> 01:06:23,729

and this is the prototype,

:

01:06:23,729 --> 01:06:25,429

so they should be here soon.

:

01:06:25,429 --> 01:06:26,162

And then this.

:

01:06:26,162 --> 01:06:28,062

I need one more prototype on this

:

01:06:28,062 --> 01:06:29,929

as you can see,

:

01:06:29,929 --> 01:06:30,829

even on my arms,

:

01:06:30,829 --> 01:06:33,496

it needs to be taken in about a half inch

:

01:06:33,496 --> 01:06:35,562

on the arms to be to be properly tight.

:

01:06:35,929 --> 01:06:37,662

And I'm having it.

:

01:06:37,662 --> 01:06:38,496

But this is this.

:

01:06:38,496 --> 01:06:41,062

This is the first order of men.

:

01:06:41,762 --> 01:06:44,762

Sorry to have somebody else around.

:

01:06:44,762 --> 01:06:47,295

This is the first order of fire shirt

:

01:06:47,295 --> 01:06:48,029

that we're putting together.

:

01:06:48,029 --> 01:06:50,462

So I made it because I wanted

:

01:06:50,862 --> 01:06:53,562

I wanted it and nobody would nobody's

:

01:06:53,562 --> 01:06:55,262

been able to make it over the past

:

01:06:55,262 --> 01:06:56,562

few years that I've been looking for it.

:

01:06:56,562 --> 01:06:57,495

So I'm like this.

:

01:06:57,495 --> 01:06:58,662

I'm just going to have it made

:

01:06:58,662 --> 01:07:00,329

and then sell a hundred of them,

:

01:07:00,329 --> 01:07:00,662

you know?

:

01:07:00,662 --> 01:07:02,762

So I'm excited to see

:

01:07:02,762 --> 01:07:04,595

it looks really crisp.

:

01:07:04,595 --> 01:07:07,162

So I'm I'm excited about that. But

:

01:07:08,495 --> 01:07:10,562

cool, Nice.

:

01:07:10,562 --> 01:07:11,662

It looks it looks good.

:

01:07:11,662 --> 01:07:13,162

I asked to get one.

:

01:07:13,362 --> 01:07:14,529

Yeah, No, I'm excited about it.

:

01:07:14,529 --> 01:07:15,862

I think so the way it looks.

:

01:07:15,862 --> 01:07:17,729

So but

:

01:07:17,962 --> 01:07:18,629

but anyway. Cool.

:

01:07:18,629 --> 01:07:19,562

Do we have any other comments or.

:

01:07:19,562 --> 01:07:21,062

We don't know.

:

01:07:21,062 --> 01:07:22,029

I think that's it.

:

01:07:22,029 --> 01:07:24,362

It's sort of a quiet evening today,

:

01:07:24,995 --> 01:07:25,862

at least in comments.

:

01:07:25,862 --> 01:07:26,929

But yeah, it's a lot of people, a lot

:

01:07:26,929 --> 01:07:27,995

a lot of a lot of people watching.

:

01:07:27,995 --> 01:07:29,162

Maybe they're haters. I don't know.

:

01:07:29,162 --> 01:07:29,962

Maybe we have

:

01:07:30,495 --> 01:07:31,929

like they they're

:

01:07:31,929 --> 01:07:33,495

they're like typing to each other

:

01:07:33,495 --> 01:07:35,229

and like and like

:

01:07:35,229 --> 01:07:35,862

saying what they're going

:

01:07:35,862 --> 01:07:38,462

to say to me about me later.

:

01:07:38,929 --> 01:07:41,329

Also also YouTube comments

:

01:07:41,329 --> 01:07:42,829

not not in our group

:

01:07:42,829 --> 01:07:45,362

that we get here, but it's just

:

01:07:46,029 --> 01:07:47,462

I've been doing shorts lately.

:

01:07:47,462 --> 01:07:49,629

Like that's been my job for the past

:

01:07:50,362 --> 01:07:51,329

few years.

:

01:07:51,329 --> 01:07:52,895

One of my jobs for the past few weeks

:

01:07:52,895 --> 01:07:54,262

is to put out some shorts.

:

01:07:54,262 --> 01:07:55,562

I need to get my name kind of out there

:

01:07:55,562 --> 01:07:56,929

and get some stuff murdered.

:

01:07:56,929 --> 01:07:57,595

And so I'm putting them

:

01:07:57,595 --> 01:07:58,762

on all these different platforms.

:

01:07:58,762 --> 01:07:59,662

It's just interesting to see

:

01:07:59,662 --> 01:08:00,995

what works on different platforms.

:

01:08:00,995 --> 01:08:02,062

Like I'm doing the same stuff

:

01:08:02,062 --> 01:08:05,429

on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube

:

01:08:06,129 --> 01:08:07,629

and some of these YouTube shorts

:

01:08:07,629 --> 01:08:08,695

and like

:

01:08:08,695 --> 01:08:10,395

the YouTube comments to

:

01:08:10,395 --> 01:08:12,295

the shorts are retarded.

:

01:08:12,295 --> 01:08:14,662

Like, yeah, they're the most retarded.

:

01:08:14,662 --> 01:08:16,762

Well, I mean, not not to bring them

:

01:08:16,762 --> 01:08:18,162

back to the subject at hand,

:

01:08:18,162 --> 01:08:20,562

but yeah, it reminds me of,

:

01:08:21,329 --> 01:08:21,729

you know,

:

01:08:21,729 --> 01:08:22,929

Plato's repeated

:

01:08:22,929 --> 01:08:24,429

invocations of the importance

:

01:08:24,429 --> 01:08:25,929

that the philosopher king

:

01:08:25,929 --> 01:08:27,362

be patient and strong,

:

01:08:27,362 --> 01:08:29,162

not just in body, but in mind

:

01:08:29,162 --> 01:08:32,062

being able to bear the weight of long

:

01:08:32,062 --> 01:08:34,862

and sometimes tedious arguments and.

:

01:08:34,862 --> 01:08:35,995

The proof

:

01:08:35,995 --> 01:08:38,029

of the value of the philosopher kings

:

01:08:38,029 --> 01:08:40,295

in the study of the mathematics

:

01:08:40,295 --> 01:08:41,895

and the tedium of mathematics

:

01:08:41,895 --> 01:08:44,295

is the demonstration of their weight.

:

01:08:44,295 --> 01:08:44,895

And I feel like

:

01:08:46,295 --> 01:08:48,662

long form content on YouTube

:

01:08:48,962 --> 01:08:49,462

attracts

:

01:08:49,462 --> 01:08:51,362

a slightly different audience than the

:

01:08:51,362 --> 01:08:53,229

the short form content.

:

01:08:53,229 --> 01:08:55,262

And so, oh, totally, yeah.

:

01:08:55,262 --> 01:08:58,262

The more you can push yourself

:

01:08:58,262 --> 01:09:01,395

to restrain yourself from

:

01:09:01,395 --> 01:09:03,662

watching too many Instagram

:

01:09:03,662 --> 01:09:05,362

reels, YouTube shorts

:

01:09:05,362 --> 01:09:06,629

or TikTok

:

01:09:06,629 --> 01:09:09,429

talks or whatever they're called tics.

:

01:09:09,429 --> 01:09:10,362

Yeah, I don't know what they're talk

:

01:09:10,362 --> 01:09:14,062

to look like suckers that take real

:

01:09:14,962 --> 01:09:16,095

right suckers. Yeah.

:

01:09:16,095 --> 01:09:18,195

The minute by minute or second by second.

:

01:09:18,762 --> 01:09:20,562

Yeah. You know, I like those.

:

01:09:20,562 --> 01:09:21,829

If you can

:

01:09:21,929 --> 01:09:23,195

restrain yourself from that

:

01:09:23,195 --> 01:09:24,629

and make an effort

:

01:09:24,629 --> 01:09:25,529

to do a little bit

:

01:09:25,529 --> 01:09:26,462

more long form

:

01:09:26,462 --> 01:09:29,262

or better and more challenging yet

:

01:09:29,895 --> 01:09:31,462

maybe you've read

:

01:09:32,329 --> 01:09:33,095

like a

:

01:09:33,095 --> 01:09:35,862

you might be you might be moving yourself

:

01:09:36,429 --> 01:09:39,029

like our mantis moving up

:

01:09:39,129 --> 01:09:40,262

we go, as Michael Scherer

:

01:09:40,262 --> 01:09:41,895

would say, from From the Sea

:

01:09:41,895 --> 01:09:44,095

oligarchical man to the

:

01:09:44,095 --> 01:09:45,962

the timber cratic man up

:

01:09:45,962 --> 01:09:46,795

we go

:

01:09:46,795 --> 01:09:48,362

on goes from the democratic man

:

01:09:48,362 --> 01:09:49,929

to the soft man.

:

01:09:49,929 --> 01:09:50,395

You can

:

01:09:50,395 --> 01:09:51,629

you can know

:

01:09:51,629 --> 01:09:53,529

not everybody can be the,

:

01:09:53,529 --> 01:09:54,695

you know, the highest level

:

01:09:54,695 --> 01:09:56,295

of of anything,

:

01:09:56,295 --> 01:09:57,395

whether that's wealth

:

01:09:57,395 --> 01:09:58,962

because, hey, wealth is great,

:

01:09:58,962 --> 01:09:59,929

honor is great.

:

01:09:59,929 --> 01:10:00,729

All these things are great.

:

01:10:00,729 --> 01:10:02,795

But like, you know,

:

01:10:02,795 --> 01:10:04,529

you can move up a level,

:

01:10:04,529 --> 01:10:07,862

you know Well, I am I do not have

:

01:10:07,862 --> 01:10:10,862

the genetics to be a

:

01:10:11,829 --> 01:10:14,295

frickin strongman,

:

01:10:14,295 --> 01:10:15,329

but I can lift a slightly

:

01:10:15,329 --> 01:10:17,129

heavier weight than I can last year,

:

01:10:17,129 --> 01:10:18,395

you know? Right.

:

01:10:18,395 --> 01:10:18,829

And you can,

:

01:10:18,829 --> 01:10:20,862

you can move up in world and that's

:

01:10:21,362 --> 01:10:22,262

we'll get more

:

01:10:22,262 --> 01:10:23,195

of that in Book ten,

:

01:10:23,195 --> 01:10:23,862

which concludes

:

01:10:23,862 --> 01:10:28,295

with a really stunning miss that throws

:

01:10:28,295 --> 01:10:32,029

back to the myth of gauges in some ways

:

01:10:32,329 --> 01:10:35,629

but we'll get to that next week.

:

01:10:36,862 --> 01:10:38,962

You know I really like this form

:

01:10:38,962 --> 01:10:41,495

I like of myth writing

:

01:10:41,495 --> 01:10:43,462

as force philosophy.

:

01:10:43,462 --> 01:10:44,295

Yeah I like it

:

01:10:44,295 --> 01:10:46,529

better than the dialog, frankly.

:

01:10:46,529 --> 01:10:48,762

But I'm doing that this week

:

01:10:48,962 --> 01:10:51,329

and it's like

:

01:10:51,329 --> 01:10:52,929

kind of the most fun I've had writing

:

01:10:52,929 --> 01:10:53,629

and it's the closest

:

01:10:53,629 --> 01:10:55,162

I've gotten to fiction in a long time.

:

01:10:55,162 --> 01:10:59,062

I'm writing this, this, I guess, fable

:

01:10:59,562 --> 01:11:00,229

or something

:

01:11:00,229 --> 01:11:02,462

that has a philosophical basis for it.

:

01:11:03,595 --> 01:11:04,429

And I will

:

01:11:04,429 --> 01:11:05,162

I won't ruin it

:

01:11:05,162 --> 01:11:05,995

because it's cool

:

01:11:05,995 --> 01:11:06,895

and I already have

:

01:11:06,895 --> 01:11:09,129

things scheduled to come out around it.

:

01:11:09,129 --> 01:11:12,162

But it's been the idea of being able

:

01:11:12,162 --> 01:11:13,962

to talk about things in symbols

:

01:11:13,962 --> 01:11:17,329

and put dialog into like

:

01:11:17,329 --> 01:11:19,929

put dialog in the mouths of, of this,

:

01:11:19,929 --> 01:11:20,162

you know,

:

01:11:20,162 --> 01:11:20,729

one or two

:

01:11:20,729 --> 01:11:23,129

like characters, like my mind is a tiger

:

01:11:23,462 --> 01:11:24,529

that I'm talking through.

:

01:11:24,529 --> 01:11:27,795

And to have

:

01:11:27,795 --> 01:11:29,195

to have little asides there

:

01:11:29,195 --> 01:11:30,295

even like that, like,

:

01:11:30,295 --> 01:11:32,295

like I have this moment where I'm like,

:

01:11:32,429 --> 01:11:34,095

I'm like, he's meditating.

:

01:11:34,095 --> 01:11:35,762

He's meditating on nonviolence

:

01:11:35,762 --> 01:11:36,662

because he's heard that

:

01:11:36,662 --> 01:11:38,429

that was what he's supposed to do

:

01:11:38,429 --> 01:11:40,762

and he's meditating on nonviolence

:

01:11:40,762 --> 01:11:44,329

and he's thinking like and he's like,

:

01:11:44,329 --> 01:11:45,729

it's very difficult to meditate

:

01:11:45,729 --> 01:11:46,862

on a thing that isn't.

:

01:11:46,862 --> 01:11:48,262

That is the absence of something.

:

01:11:49,829 --> 01:11:50,362

And it's

:

01:11:50,362 --> 01:11:52,362

like it's almost like an ellipses,

:

01:11:53,062 --> 01:11:54,795

like a space between and like I'm

:

01:11:54,795 --> 01:11:56,329

becoming too philosophical.

:

01:11:56,329 --> 01:12:00,029

I will get back to meditating.

:

01:12:00,029 --> 01:12:01,595

I just get a little lost sight of like,

:

01:12:01,595 --> 01:12:03,229

maybe myself laugh with it.

:

01:12:03,229 --> 01:12:06,662

But like, it's Tiger trying to meditate.

:

01:12:06,662 --> 01:12:09,262

But when he just played on a thing

:

01:12:09,262 --> 01:12:11,295

that's not there.

:

01:12:11,462 --> 01:12:13,562

But anyway.

:

01:12:13,562 --> 01:12:15,062

But yeah, so

:

01:12:15,062 --> 01:12:18,628

any more questions Every day.

:

01:12:18,628 --> 01:12:19,562

Matthew Seneca says,

:

01:12:19,562 --> 01:12:20,728

I certainly didn't come to class

:

01:12:20,728 --> 01:12:23,595

prepared today. That's fine.

:

01:12:23,595 --> 01:12:24,928

None of us are with Plato.

:

01:12:24,928 --> 01:12:27,462

Plato is a sort of initiation

:

01:12:27,462 --> 01:12:28,928

into the questions.

:

01:12:28,928 --> 01:12:30,095

No one knows for sure

:

01:12:30,095 --> 01:12:31,162

what he's talking about,

:

01:12:31,162 --> 01:12:32,095

but he's inviting us

:

01:12:32,095 --> 01:12:33,495

to try to figure it out.

:

01:12:33,495 --> 01:12:34,695

So that's okay.

:

01:12:34,695 --> 01:12:36,362

You're you're here.

:

01:12:36,362 --> 01:12:38,395

You're going over with us.

:

01:12:38,395 --> 01:12:39,062

And and

:

01:12:39,062 --> 01:12:41,595

if we are of a good Socratic spirit,

:

01:12:41,595 --> 01:12:43,695

we should be saying we don't know either.

:

01:12:43,695 --> 01:12:45,062

And we should maybe be careful

:

01:12:45,062 --> 01:12:46,362

talking about

:

01:12:46,362 --> 01:12:47,628

things of which we ourselves

:

01:12:47,628 --> 01:12:48,662

are not totally sure.

:

01:12:48,662 --> 01:12:50,762

But, you know,

:

01:12:50,762 --> 01:12:52,895

it does appear that some interpretations

:

01:12:52,895 --> 01:12:54,962

might be better than others. Very least.

:

01:12:55,762 --> 01:12:56,128

Yeah.

:

01:12:56,128 --> 01:12:59,128

And keep in mind, too, for people

:

01:12:59,362 --> 01:13:00,862

watching who haven't

:

01:13:00,862 --> 01:13:02,295

caught up with the reading

:

01:13:03,495 --> 01:13:04,228

that

:

01:13:05,595 --> 01:13:07,728

we have in the playlist

:

01:13:07,728 --> 01:13:09,862

on on the YouTube channel.

:

01:13:10,262 --> 01:13:11,462

And so there's a playlist for this.

:

01:13:11,462 --> 01:13:12,195

So this

:

01:13:12,295 --> 01:13:13,328

the idea of doing

:

01:13:13,328 --> 01:13:14,462

this was not something to be

:

01:13:14,462 --> 01:13:15,728

just one off live shows,

:

01:13:15,728 --> 01:13:17,862

but that, you know,

:

01:13:17,862 --> 01:13:18,262

for people

:

01:13:18,262 --> 01:13:20,762

who enjoy these kind of conversations,

:

01:13:21,062 --> 01:13:22,762

if you wanted to study

:

01:13:22,762 --> 01:13:24,162

the Republic and go through it

:

01:13:24,162 --> 01:13:25,762

and then listen to our

:

01:13:25,762 --> 01:13:28,562

clever banter about it

:

01:13:29,162 --> 01:13:30,995

and Chris is great summaries

:

01:13:30,995 --> 01:13:31,462

of things

:

01:13:31,462 --> 01:13:33,428

because he's he's doing a good short

:

01:13:33,428 --> 01:13:34,795

at summaries at the beginning.

:

01:13:34,795 --> 01:13:36,162

They kind of walk people through like,

:

01:13:36,162 --> 01:13:37,095

this is what you just

:

01:13:37,095 --> 01:13:39,062

this is what you just heard

:

01:13:39,062 --> 01:13:41,628

or if you're listening to it on

:

01:13:41,628 --> 01:13:44,328

audiobook or this is what you just read

:

01:13:44,328 --> 01:13:45,162

because it takes a while.

:

01:13:45,162 --> 01:13:46,562

Like I said, a few times to go through.

:

01:13:46,562 --> 01:13:47,462

I actually did also

:

01:13:47,462 --> 01:13:49,562

listen to the Sega thing this morning,

:

01:13:49,562 --> 01:13:50,762

so I got your jokes about Up

:

01:13:50,762 --> 01:13:52,728

We Go, because yes, he does that

:

01:13:53,762 --> 01:13:54,062

because

:

01:13:54,062 --> 01:13:55,262

that's a good like the Sega

:

01:13:55,262 --> 01:13:57,128

things are good introduction.

:

01:13:57,128 --> 01:13:57,528

Yeah.

:

01:13:57,528 --> 01:13:58,428

Just to be like okay

:

01:13:58,428 --> 01:13:59,628

what am I about to read

:

01:13:59,628 --> 01:14:00,662

Like what is this about?

:

01:14:00,662 --> 01:14:03,062

So in the short form so I can like, okay,

:

01:14:03,895 --> 01:14:04,128

yeah.

:

01:14:04,128 --> 01:14:06,928

At the risk of sounding a democratic man,

:

01:14:07,728 --> 01:14:09,862

what, what is everybody else

:

01:14:09,862 --> 01:14:11,328

talking about in relation

:

01:14:11,328 --> 01:14:13,628

to the Republic?

:

01:14:13,628 --> 01:14:14,195

Yeah, it's like,

:

01:14:14,195 --> 01:14:15,862

it's like going through the cliff Notes.

:

01:14:15,862 --> 01:14:16,595

What am I supposed to be

:

01:14:16,595 --> 01:14:17,462

getting out of this?

:

01:14:17,462 --> 01:14:18,595

Okay, cool.

:

01:14:18,595 --> 01:14:18,962

All right.

:

01:14:18,962 --> 01:14:19,862

And then you can go back

:

01:14:19,862 --> 01:14:21,028

and find your own interpretation.

:

01:14:21,028 --> 01:14:21,595

You're like, you know,

:

01:14:21,595 --> 01:14:23,028

I don't actually agree with that.

:

01:14:23,028 --> 01:14:24,062

We're like, That's

:

01:14:24,062 --> 01:14:25,528

I got something else out of

:

01:14:25,528 --> 01:14:26,395

that was weird,

:

01:14:26,395 --> 01:14:26,995

you know,

:

01:14:26,995 --> 01:14:28,162

because you different

:

01:14:28,162 --> 01:14:30,395

man, different water, all that,

:

01:14:30,395 --> 01:14:31,695

you know, at a different time in life

:

01:14:31,695 --> 01:14:32,562

you're seeing a different thing

:

01:14:32,562 --> 01:14:33,328

that's more important to you

:

01:14:33,328 --> 01:14:34,362

at that particular time.

:

01:14:34,362 --> 01:14:35,695

So you get different influence.

:

01:14:35,695 --> 01:14:36,162

But,

:

01:14:36,428 --> 01:14:37,095

you know, it's it's

:

01:14:37,095 --> 01:14:37,862

good to know

:

01:14:37,862 --> 01:14:38,762

like what

:

01:14:38,762 --> 01:14:40,228

other people are getting out of it.

:

01:14:40,228 --> 01:14:41,762

What's especially with a book like this

:

01:14:41,762 --> 01:14:42,462

where it's been written

:

01:14:42,462 --> 01:14:44,795

about for like forever

:

01:14:44,795 --> 01:14:46,995

so it's good to actually, like hear

:

01:14:47,262 --> 01:14:48,062

what other people thinking.

:

01:14:48,062 --> 01:14:49,928

And then obviously

:

01:14:49,928 --> 01:14:52,162

like a michael Sugrue has a different

:

01:14:52,962 --> 01:14:55,428

just philosophical and political

:

01:14:55,562 --> 01:14:58,062

probably standpoint than we do.

:

01:14:58,062 --> 01:14:58,395

Yeah.

:

01:14:58,395 --> 01:15:01,195

So you can take it a different way.

:

01:15:01,662 --> 01:15:02,828

It's kind of like

:

01:15:02,828 --> 01:15:03,595

and you can decide

:

01:15:03,595 --> 01:15:04,695

whether you think we're full of shit

:

01:15:04,695 --> 01:15:06,662

or he's full of shit, but like,

:

01:15:06,662 --> 01:15:08,062

or maybe both of us are kind of,

:

01:15:09,062 --> 01:15:09,795

you know.

:

01:15:09,795 --> 01:15:10,195

Yeah.

:

01:15:10,362 --> 01:15:13,028

So, and if you think both of other,

:

01:15:13,028 --> 01:15:14,762

that means you're probably thinking

:

01:15:14,762 --> 01:15:16,395

so that's good.

:

01:15:16,862 --> 01:15:18,995

That's so I mean, that's a good thing.

:

01:15:18,995 --> 01:15:20,462

But anyway,

:

01:15:20,462 --> 01:15:22,228

after after that, I'll just wrap it up

:

01:15:22,228 --> 01:15:22,428

and see

:

01:15:22,428 --> 01:15:24,062

if we don't have any more questions.

:

01:15:24,062 --> 01:15:25,728

We had like a time last week

:

01:15:25,728 --> 01:15:28,095

and then less this week, but

:

01:15:29,462 --> 01:15:30,062

maybe because we did

:

01:15:30,062 --> 01:15:30,728

two books at once,

:

01:15:30,728 --> 01:15:31,028

I don't know,

:

01:15:31,028 --> 01:15:34,528

maybe it was like valid, but anyway.

:

01:15:34,828 --> 01:15:35,162

But yeah,

:

01:15:35,162 --> 01:15:37,762

thanks everybody for watching along and,

:

01:15:38,562 --> 01:15:41,128

and obviously we are accepting

:

01:15:41,128 --> 01:15:43,262

applications for the were fires first

:

01:15:43,262 --> 01:15:44,162

men group.

:

01:15:44,162 --> 01:15:45,662

I try to separate them

:

01:15:45,662 --> 01:15:46,628

I've tried to explain this

:

01:15:46,628 --> 01:15:48,528

in a video that I uploaded

:

01:15:48,528 --> 01:15:49,728

in the sense that you were fire.

:

01:15:49,728 --> 01:15:50,862

I wanted to be a bigger thing

:

01:15:50,862 --> 01:15:53,162

that a lot of people can identify with

:

01:15:53,162 --> 01:15:54,495

and you don't have to be in the group

:

01:15:54,495 --> 01:15:56,428

or whatever because it's membership dues.

:

01:15:56,428 --> 01:15:57,028

Some people

:

01:15:57,028 --> 01:15:58,562

don't have that, or even a country

:

01:15:58,562 --> 01:15:59,462

where that's like not

:

01:15:59,462 --> 01:16:01,562

feasible or whatever. And

:

01:16:02,762 --> 01:16:04,328

in what we're doing, if

:

01:16:04,328 --> 01:16:06,028

you like, we're doing

:

01:16:06,028 --> 01:16:07,995

your part of the order of Fire.

:

01:16:08,095 --> 01:16:08,762

And but

:

01:16:08,762 --> 01:16:09,562

if you want to be part

:

01:16:09,562 --> 01:16:10,928

of our inside group,

:

01:16:10,928 --> 01:16:13,628

you know, like where we were discussing

:

01:16:13,628 --> 01:16:15,928

all this stuff all week long,

:

01:16:15,928 --> 01:16:18,095

a whole bunch of guys were digging

:

01:16:18,095 --> 01:16:18,995

into this really deep

:

01:16:18,995 --> 01:16:20,962

and having a lot of fun with it

:

01:16:20,962 --> 01:16:21,862

and joking around,

:

01:16:21,862 --> 01:16:24,062

but also, that's where my joke

:

01:16:24,062 --> 01:16:24,795

I said that

:

01:16:24,795 --> 01:16:25,562

if free, real,

:

01:16:25,562 --> 01:16:26,828

if free will doesn't exist,

:

01:16:26,828 --> 01:16:28,262

the dead

:

01:16:28,262 --> 01:16:30,495

Sam Harris was always going to be a cop.

:

01:16:30,495 --> 01:16:33,195

I was like, like you had no choice.

:

01:16:33,628 --> 01:16:36,228

But he was always gonna be cut, you know?

:

01:16:36,228 --> 01:16:37,295

Like, that's where that came from.

:

01:16:37,295 --> 01:16:39,195

As we were discussing that

:

01:16:39,195 --> 01:16:40,895

it was going through that whole land.

:

01:16:40,895 --> 01:16:42,328

So we're having a lot of

:

01:16:42,328 --> 01:16:43,328

cool discussions right now

:

01:16:43,328 --> 01:16:44,995

and have a sort of events.

:

01:16:44,995 --> 01:16:45,495

We're going to go out

:

01:16:45,495 --> 01:16:47,595

and shoot the ritual out here

:

01:16:47,595 --> 01:16:48,362

in a couple a

:

01:16:48,562 --> 01:16:49,528

few weeks,

:

01:16:49,528 --> 01:16:51,795

get together in the East Coast.

:

01:16:51,795 --> 01:16:55,295

And yeah, it's a it's a really it's

:

01:16:55,495 --> 01:16:57,028

really interesting group of dudes

:

01:16:57,028 --> 01:16:58,062

to be connected with on a

:

01:16:58,062 --> 01:17:00,128

on a daily basis. It's it's just been

:

01:17:01,328 --> 01:17:02,662

it's been exciting and the

:

01:17:02,662 --> 01:17:03,695

discussions have been rolling

:

01:17:03,695 --> 01:17:05,395

without me pushing them lately

:

01:17:05,395 --> 01:17:05,995

and it's been that's

:

01:17:05,995 --> 01:17:07,295

what's been really cool

:

01:17:07,295 --> 01:17:08,362

and I've been hoping for that

:

01:17:08,362 --> 01:17:10,062

to happen for a long time. It really is.

:

01:17:10,062 --> 01:17:11,462

So we're like catching our stride,

:

01:17:11,462 --> 01:17:13,862

I think, as a group, which is exciting.

:

01:17:14,062 --> 01:17:14,895

So.

:

01:17:15,128 --> 01:17:17,062

So if you're interested in that, there's,

:

01:17:17,062 --> 01:17:18,662

you know, go to the word fire dot com.

:

01:17:18,662 --> 01:17:20,995

That's, that's our store and our

:

01:17:20,995 --> 01:17:22,162

there's space

:

01:17:22,162 --> 01:17:23,562

for an application on there.

:

01:17:23,562 --> 01:17:25,195

And most of the conversations

:

01:17:25,195 --> 01:17:27,028

we have our nerdy conversations

:

01:17:27,028 --> 01:17:27,395

like these,

:

01:17:27,395 --> 01:17:29,428

most of the conversations are more

:

01:17:29,995 --> 01:17:31,295

jujitsu lifting.

:

01:17:31,295 --> 01:17:33,462

We've got a style section now I just,

:

01:17:33,462 --> 01:17:35,895

I just saw that recently

:

01:17:35,895 --> 01:17:37,395

talking about like

:

01:17:37,828 --> 01:17:38,795

what it's like I said,

:

01:17:38,795 --> 01:17:39,762

it's just esthetics.

:

01:17:39,762 --> 01:17:41,328

It's like esthetics generally.

:

01:17:41,328 --> 01:17:44,028

So like people post art and then like,

:

01:17:45,262 --> 01:17:45,795

you know,

:

01:17:46,228 --> 01:17:47,128

they'll talk about whatever

:

01:17:47,128 --> 01:17:48,361

they want to in terms of esthetics.

:

01:17:48,361 --> 01:17:49,761

So like sometimes it's like,

:

01:17:49,761 --> 01:17:52,061

you know how like, dude,

:

01:17:52,095 --> 01:17:53,228

you've been talking about jewelry.

:

01:17:53,228 --> 01:17:53,995

It's like what's,

:

01:17:53,995 --> 01:17:55,095

what's masculine jewelry

:

01:17:55,095 --> 01:17:56,261

and what's like not,

:

01:17:56,261 --> 01:17:56,595

you know,

:

01:17:56,595 --> 01:17:57,761

so that we were talking about that.

:

01:17:57,761 --> 01:17:59,161

So yeah, about that.

:

01:17:59,161 --> 01:18:00,161

And then of course, like,

:

01:18:00,161 --> 01:18:01,595

think our firearm section

:

01:18:01,595 --> 01:18:03,328

is like the busiest one that we have,

:

01:18:03,328 --> 01:18:05,061

which is cool.

:

01:18:05,061 --> 01:18:07,528

I'm still waiting for, for Jeremy

:

01:18:07,528 --> 01:18:08,595

to drop his,

:

01:18:08,595 --> 01:18:10,695

his, his painting technique, his,

:

01:18:11,828 --> 01:18:15,061

his rifle magazine So it blows my stuff

:

01:18:15,061 --> 01:18:17,095

out of the water is so,

:

01:18:17,095 --> 01:18:20,161

so professional, so good.

:

01:18:20,161 --> 01:18:20,995

I need I need it.

:

01:18:20,995 --> 01:18:23,395

I might do that for my next weapon

:

01:18:23,428 --> 01:18:25,795

when I save up for it, but we'll see.

:

01:18:25,795 --> 01:18:26,061

Yeah.

:

01:18:26,061 --> 01:18:28,361

And actually, Nick joined today.

:

01:18:28,361 --> 01:18:28,961

Oh, cool.

:

01:18:28,961 --> 01:18:30,395

Fantastic Yeah. So.

:

01:18:30,395 --> 01:18:31,428

And he actually went to school

:

01:18:31,428 --> 01:18:32,928

to be a gunsmith, so.

:

01:18:32,928 --> 01:18:35,461

Yes, yes, so, So that's that.

:

01:18:35,495 --> 01:18:35,628

You know,

:

01:18:35,628 --> 01:18:37,428

that's another guy we have

:

01:18:37,428 --> 01:18:38,761

who's on that page in there.

:

01:18:38,761 --> 01:18:40,728

So cool.

:

01:18:40,728 --> 01:18:41,028

All right.

:

01:18:41,028 --> 01:18:42,395

Well, thank you

:

01:18:42,395 --> 01:18:44,161

all for listening and watching.

:

01:18:44,161 --> 01:18:46,695

And we'll get the audio up soon.

:

01:18:46,995 --> 01:18:47,528

Yeah,

:

01:18:47,895 --> 01:18:50,628

Graduations for for working through this.

:

01:18:51,428 --> 01:18:52,961

This very

:

01:18:54,028 --> 01:18:55,561

heavy and difficult but

:

01:18:55,561 --> 01:18:56,995

tremendously worthwhile book.

:

01:18:56,995 --> 01:18:59,828

It's the value.

:

01:18:59,828 --> 01:19:02,795

You won't even feel half the value,

:

01:19:03,161 --> 01:19:03,495

you know,

:

01:19:03,495 --> 01:19:04,861

five years from now

:

01:19:04,861 --> 01:19:05,928

for all the things

:

01:19:05,928 --> 01:19:07,895

that are coming out of this,

:

01:19:07,895 --> 01:19:09,595

it just it touches on

:

01:19:09,595 --> 01:19:10,828

so many different things

:

01:19:10,828 --> 01:19:12,095

as Jack is coming in,

:

01:19:12,095 --> 01:19:13,628

every time you read it, you're like,

:

01:19:13,628 --> 01:19:14,761

Oh, this is like that thing

:

01:19:14,761 --> 01:19:15,361

that's happening

:

01:19:15,361 --> 01:19:17,928

in the real world over here or or here.

:

01:19:17,928 --> 01:19:18,661

Is that reference

:

01:19:18,661 --> 01:19:21,528

I keep hearing to this other thing.

:

01:19:21,528 --> 01:19:23,161

Lord of the Rings now looks different.

:

01:19:23,161 --> 01:19:24,095

It's it's

:

01:19:24,095 --> 01:19:24,661

such a it's

:

01:19:24,661 --> 01:19:27,595

such a worthwhile undertaking.

:

01:19:27,595 --> 01:19:30,095

So congratulations for working through.

:

01:19:30,361 --> 01:19:30,728

I see you.

:

01:19:30,728 --> 01:19:31,761

If you've got to eight or nine,

:

01:19:31,761 --> 01:19:33,428

you'll probably get through ten as well.

:

01:19:33,428 --> 01:19:35,828

So yeah, you're in the homestretch now.

:

01:19:35,828 --> 01:19:38,428

Yeah. You're, you know, so congrats.

:

01:19:38,761 --> 01:19:40,461

All right. Thanks everybody.

:

01:19:40,461 --> 01:19:44,528

The next to stay so stay sort.

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About the Podcast

PH2T3R The Journal of Solar Culture
Masculine Myth and Solar Philosophy
Exploring masculine myth and philosophy as we develop and promote a new solar culture for men of the future. Inspired by Jack Donovan's book Fire in the Dark. The official podcast of The Order of Fire, a movement for Solar Idealists.

About your host

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Jack Donovan

Author of The Way of Men, Becoming a Barbarian, A More Complete Beast, and Fire in the Dark